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Mon 06:02:07 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . A Link to look at before today's Timeout session:
https://lovingbdsm.net/2017/09/06/collars/

Mon 06:15:37 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Is a collar some sort of Status symbol?

Mon 06:16:13 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Is there more than one kind of collar?

Mon 06:18:00 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Is there a standard collar definition?

Mon 06:22:09 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . What can I know, absolutely, about someone wearing a collar?

Mon 06:29:53 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Are formal Public Collaring Ceremonies Required?

Mon 06:57:53 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Entering, seating Myself...*

Mon 06:58:56 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . following behind Mistress as i settle down gently kneeling on the soft fur as i catch up with the topic

Mon 07:00:34 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . It is good to see You LadyGwynethRose *nods respectfully* and it's a pleasure to see tenderheart{GRs alpha} with You.

Mon 07:01:12 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . warm smile...goodening M'Lord...

Mon 07:01:42 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . Good evening, My Dear Dark Twin Brother...it is lovely to be here...*Warm smiles*

Mon 07:02:47 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . LadyGwynethRose conducted a formal collaring and W/we have received a number of interesting questions. I am hoping to put many of them to rest this evening.

Mon 07:04:30 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . W/we still se many submissives, new to BDSM, who seem to believe they have very little value without a collar.

Mon 07:04:49 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . I am hoping to be able to be a part of the discussion, M'Lord Dark Traveler...it is such an important one...

Mon 07:05:23 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nods and ponders over the questions...

Mon 07:05:52 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . You would agree LadyGwynethRose that a collar is not a status symbol?

Mon 07:05:57 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding thoughtfully to Dark Traveler* But how much do We as Dominants take that blame? That a submissive isn't 'as good' without a collar? Do We not sometimes put the collar out there as the be all and end all to submission?

Mon 07:06:40 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . Not at all, M'Lord Dark Traveler...just as say, having an engagement ring wouldn't be necessary for a relationship..it's nice but not necessary.

Mon 07:08:19 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . I think that is a part of the problem. The Dom/me sees the collar as a control device and I think see's it as taking poterntial property off the market.

Mon 07:09:03 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nods in agreement with M'Lady...yes i think that too Mistress...my own parents do not wear their wedding rings..in fact i cant remember my father ever wearing his but they have been married to eachother for over 50 years...so they know that eachother are bonded even weith out the rings

Mon 07:09:29 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding thoughtfully again...* My sentiments exactly, M'Lord..after all, yes, We Dominants do enjoy using the collar BUT then the submissives who are uncollared are somehow looked at as 'less than' which they shouldn't be.

Mon 07:10:06 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . I was hoping to allow the Castle Community that is new to BDSM to understand that there are many kinds of collars some that are given only for the duration of play... but at the same time to allow T/them to understand that a collar is not required at all.

Mon 07:10:24 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . from the subs perspective however ...for me at least..it feels good to wear the collar...however if sometimes i forget my collar in RL or have to for some reason not wear my collar...i STILL know that i am owned by Mistress in my heart and mind

Mon 07:11:55 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding* tenderheart has a triskelion with "GR" on a heart he wears on a pendant, usually...but that isn't a 'collar' in the classic sense. It IS a collar in My sense, though.

Mon 07:12:20 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . What can You and I do, as Dom/me to prevent this?

Mon 07:12:30 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . I have seen 'collars' that are necklaces, bracelets, earrings, etc...not the classic 'collar' but a collar just the same.

Mon 07:13:21 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . An excellent question, M'Lord...hmmm...how can We stop this perception? I think treating all submissives with the respect they deserve, collared or not, would go a long way to changing this idea.

Mon 07:14:56 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . and again from the sub perspective sometimes because of the way that the D/s is portrayed gives the impression of a "REAL" collar as a status symbol and the stigma of what a sub does and or is about and the whole relationship

Mon 07:17:20 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . I am inclined to agree with You My Dark Twin Sister. In RT I've applied a "Play Collar" that allows Me to mark the one I play with so that she is not approached while W/we play. I've given a Collar of protection to submissives who have been damaged or harmed by ill use.

Mon 07:17:34 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . Good point, tenderheart...how can W/we get rid of that idea that a submissive isn't a 'real' submissive without a collar??? I know that that is the ultimate goal for some, but some don't want it...does that make them any less submissive?

Mon 07:18:24 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding* I Myself have given out Collars of Protection but they were temporary, My Dark Twin Brother...until they found their One.

Mon 07:19:04 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~arrives late due to work, but is now here, nods to present~

~reads back to catch up~

Mon 07:19:25 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . to those present

Mon 07:19:50 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . *Returns the polite nod to Solstice*

Mon 07:20:22 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . no i dont think it makes them less of s submissive ..some just like to be subs and have their freedom the play with the Ones they choose...like subs that are subserviant when they seek out a Dom/me of their choise for a RL session...it doesnt mececarrily invole haveing the physical collar...it might just be put on for the purpose of the session but then they can take it off after and that doesnt make them any less submissive then a perment one

Mon 07:20:27 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . I have not collared anyone, at least not formally, but I agree that too many seem to see it as a status symbol or a "going steady" ring.

Mon 07:21:03 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding and smiling to Solstice..* So, W/we are talking about collars...now M/many saw Me collaring pink jeannie a week or so ago, and that was a Formal Collaring but it was mutually decided, not arbitrarily decided..

Mon 07:22:13 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . I think the general belief is that the idea of the collar was adopted by the BDSM community from cultures who historically had slaves that wore collars to show their status as owned property.

Mon 07:23:05 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding to My Dark Twin Brother and Ms. Solstice..* I agree and I agree with Ms. Solstice...and like a 'going steady' ring, easily discarded as well.

Mon 07:23:46 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Yes, Ms. Rose, I was able to observe your ceremony in hindsight, so to speak, and was sorry I wasn't present as it was happening. It was lovely, and a nice return to a Dungeon occasion that seems to have gone extinct.

I have indeed wondered if the very concept of collars in BDSM has lost it actual meaning and respect.

Mon 07:24:57 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . i know that there have been in the past Ones who just take on a sub to have one or that collar any sub that asks...that was my first situation when i discovered the bdsm realm and this chat space here....it was within i think 15 minutes that i was collared to a Mistress...and that did not go well as i did indeed feel like she only wanted me as a property like cattle insteald of actual discussion about what a collar meant or act=tually if i wanted the collar as i was so new and learing my own feelings...

Mon 07:25:09 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . However, cultures tht owned slaves tended to see the collar as a form of punishment. If Y/you look at the metal and wood collars that were recovered from slave ships that delivered slaves to the US during the era when W/we imported forced labor that would be very obvious.

Mon 07:25:30 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . Good point, Ms. Solstice and as I said, I think that the idea and concept of the collar has lost a great deal of its meaning..as You said, like a 'going steady' ring.

Mon 07:25:44 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . I think perhaps the idea might have been partially borrowed - the idea of "ownership" that we like to bandy about so much, but certainly not the actual cruelty of it.

In BDSM concepts like slavery, ownership, etc. are more symbolic than actual.

Mon 07:27:02 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding* And I think that's a good thing, Ms. Solstice...frankly, owning a real 'slave' would be an awful lot of work!!

Mon 07:27:03 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . i also felt too that with Her collaring it was like a competion to have the most subs that She could find .... like it was a sort of game of who has the most "toys" wins

Mon 07:27:31 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . That's true, My Dark Twin..the collar concept has always been fraught with the negative aspects.

Mon 07:27:39 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . I have been told by others about submissives that beg them for collars - merely days of "playing" with a dominant, and I have been implored for it as well.

So I think some doms may feel like if they offer a collar, it increases their chances of a regular playmate.

Mon 07:28:40 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Well, slave ownership back in the day was treated almost like owning cattle. ~wry smile~ So yeah, a lot of work, but not the kind of work we like to enjoy in BDSM.

Mon 07:30:45 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . No kidding, Ms. Solstice...*wry smile in return* and yes, I have had submissives beg Me for My Collar until they find out that they may have to...oh, I don't know...be loyal?? Suddenly the collar isn't nearly as sparkly an object.

Mon 07:30:59 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Today I see collaring as a staged affair. Beginning with a "Play Collar", moving to a "Collar of Consideration", once both partners decide that T/they have considered and are willing to seed a more permanent relationship that W/we see them move to a "Training" period and a "Training" Collar. If this period does not put one or B/both off... then W/we move to a permanent of Formal Collar.

Mon 07:31:55 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nods in total agreement with Mistress...haveing seen all to many of my fellow subs treat the ollar as just something to play with and not actually understand what that all entails

Mon 07:32:44 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Right. ~rme~

In any case, I'm not sure about how it is in the RT BDSM community, as I'm not really part of that anymore, but I wonder if the symbolism and meaning of a collar has been as watered down there as in VT?

Mon 07:33:58 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . That was the way I did it, My Dark Twin...first, the Playtime collar, then the Consideration one, then the Training period...oh My those training periods!! and THEN the Formal Collar...now, that had changed with blue djinn/pink jeannie because s/he was once Collared to Me so W/we were able to move forward a little more quickly.

Mon 07:34:06 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . remembering my own first time at a dungeon with Mistress...She gave me one of Her rings to denote that i was under Her care...just to make sure that i wasnt picked up so to speak...and to me i greatly appreciated that...i rmemember driveing home singing " i got a collar...i got a collar " *LOL*

Mon 07:34:22 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . Not in RT, I don't think, Ms. Solstice but definitely in VT..

Mon 07:34:24 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . *making my way in and finding a seat quietly, reading back*

Mon 07:34:42 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Do W/we see Stables of submissives as inappropriate? And if so why?

Mon 07:35:48 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . Good evening, M'Lord Zilla...ummm...My Dark Twin, I Myself used to have a stable in VT...many, many years ago...but now My RT and My VT have aligned, so to speak...and I don't have a stable anymore.

Mon 07:36:04 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . I always been uncertain of the various types of collars, other than a "play collar".

Because really for me, there are only two types of collars - a play one, and a bonded/lifetime one.

The former is used whether formally collared or not - it is a tool to facilitate types of play.

The latter - I have never offered, and honestly, not sure if I ever will, at this point of my life.

If I'm merely in a "long term relationship", to me that is not the only criteria for having a collar.

Mon 07:36:15 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . i never thought of Mistresses other collared subs as being in a stable M'Lord...but actually as my brothers and sisters...a F/family relationship and that was also told me and showed me by Mistress as that we were all equals and close as Her protected

Mon 07:36:58 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~smiles and nods to Zilla~

Mon 07:37:12 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . *smiles as I see tenderheart{GRs alpha} reliving a happy moment.*

Mon 07:37:37 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . in fact me and my brother became best friends in RL as well as VT and never felt like our collares were purely ownership...as i said always a F/family

Mon 07:38:12 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . I don't think they're inappropriate unless the motivation behind it is just to compete and show off - "hey, look how many submissives I have, because I'm such an awesome dom". ~chuckke~

Mon 07:38:32 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . In both RT and in the Castle I tie the collar selection to the currently in place contract that stands between My submissive and I.

Mon 07:39:03 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . *nods respectfully to Zilla*

Mon 07:39:23 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grins to Ms. Solstice...* I sometimes think that the New Dominants do that..to show off...'look at all of My toys"..but when They become a little more...seasoned???? They tend to change Their thinking a bit.

Mon 07:39:36 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . smiles in welcome to Zilla

Mon 07:40:11 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . The building of a "Stable" is seen by Me as a way to create a sense of family in a multi person relationship.

Mon 07:40:51 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Well, I dunno, Ms. Rose - I've seen some pretty old doms collect submissives like stamps. ~l~

Mon 07:41:33 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . The submissive I had in RT in Germany, who introduced Me to BDSM, required more than one Dom/me in her life. Something I had a great deal of difficulty with when I was the younger version of Myself.

Mon 07:41:33 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nodding...that also depends too on the Dom/me who is doing the collaring...yes Mistress treated me as F/family however i did come from some danageing collarings where i was treated just as another one in the stable

Mon 07:42:31 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . W/we used her Collar to indicate which of the Dom/me she was serving at a particular moment so that poorly made assumptions were kept at a minimum.

Mon 07:43:00 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . *nodding along, listening*

Mon 07:43:08 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . So, I may put a 'mark' on someone - like a light temporary scar, or piercing, or a semi-permanent tattoo, even. I've only done that once - so even that carries a strong meaning for me, and not done lightly.

An actual collar - I would have to as certain as I can be, that is the person I want by my side and at my feet for the rest of my life.

Mon 07:44:41 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding thoughtfully at the answers...* I know I call Mine My F/family...always have...but just because they wear My Collar doesn't make them automatons..I think sometimes that We expect Ours to be automatons, the yes no three bags full types and they are people first, submissives secondly.

Mon 07:44:57 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . That's interesting, Dark Traveler. I've only known two submissives that have had more than one dominant at once. They all found it to be... a disaster. ~chuckle~

I know of only one situation that it worked - a married couple had one submissive between them.

Mon 07:46:18 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . The physical collar, unlike a brand, a tattoo or physical marking may be removed... the removal of the collar, based upon what has been negotiated can release the submissive for an agreed upon time period. That's why bracelets and rings are commonly used.

Mon 07:46:32 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . I am aware of the play collar which is, as stated, used for an evening or a scene or such, but generally considered to be short term at best.. and then the other side of the coin as formal collars, denoting a long term relationship/bonding. Up until recently, I had not heard the term of training collar, though that makes a certain amount of sense that there would be an in between.

Mon 07:46:46 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . I don't think I can have more than one submissive. ~chuckle~ I could certainly have a scene with more than one submissive, but not a D/s relationship. ~g~

Mon 07:47:55 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . By no means did I intend to suggest that Two Dom/me and a single sub was something easy to make work. In My case there were as many as 6 of Us.

Mon 07:48:42 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding* I have had a few in My reality, Ms. Solstice..it was a good dynamic because the submissives were good together and treated each other like family..but it isn't for E/everyone.

Mon 07:48:42 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . well the thing that i have also found in my case that the devotion also plays a part...finding the right One that fills the need and treats the collar as something special...and like me and Mistress that after a long time that bond becomes strong and doesnt need the physical collar or even a mark..i just know that i AM Hers and always will be...nomatter the mark or ourward showing off of something physical

Mon 07:48:47 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . the submissives makeup was not something I've run across again but I can now understand that the need can be a real one for the submissive.

Mon 07:49:26 PM EDT Apr 5 wolf pup . . . *sets down quietly

Mon 07:50:03 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~nods~ I understand the option of removal, so when I use a mark, I make sure it's not permanent.

I know collars in BDSM can indicate ownership, and they're not treated like a wedding ring "this is forever" type of thing. But it IS a very real commitment that I don't think many truly understand.

Even when there is no written contract, a collar is like a contract. It's binding. It's not something that's thrown off because you had a fight.

Mon 07:51:24 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~nods to Ms. Rose~ I don't have the mindset for multiples at all. I admire those who can maintain a stable, healthy relationship with several. ~s~

Mon 07:52:18 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nods to Solstice...i agree M'Lady however too it has to be treated with respect to the submissve and their feelings too of if the collar has to be taken off...for some reason...like mine was when i was tossed about...that it should be able to be removed IF the situation became toxic...now like i own you forever and you cant get away from Me...

Mon 07:52:22 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . Exactly that, Solstice, that a formal collar is not to be taken lightly..

Mon 07:52:30 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . In the Castle, Doliare wanted to be "First Girl". This is what introduced Me to the lady tiffany. Almost as soon as it started it became a problem. I had asked Soliare to Marry Me and she wore My ring in her home town, she lived in Dallas, and the stress caused her to seek another RT Dom in Dallas and in a monthy W/we were history. Even knowing that tiffany is a happily married woman who just wanted someone to teach her and her husband about RT BDSM.

Mon 07:53:22 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . *smiles as I see wolf pup slip into the room*

Mon 07:54:39 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding to My Dark Twin* I think the O/ones involved need to be understanding and clear in T/their intentions..B/both P/parties, not just the Dominant, not just the submissive..I remember that situation.

Mon 07:54:50 PM EDT Apr 5 ~chrissa~ . . . *tip-toes in as well, trying to read back to the thoughtful discussion... a lot going on, so staying quiet to catch up*

Mon 07:54:56 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *smiles to wolf pup*

Mon 07:55:01 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . and i also think it depends on the Dom/me who is doing the collaring...and the sub..because some subs again because of the perception of a lifestyle think that it involves giveing away all free will in contract form or some other form...but i have never felt htat my free will with Mistress was taken away from me..far from it...i obey Her always bue She grants me my everyday freedom of not micromanageing because i' am Hers

Mon 07:55:11 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *smiles to chrissa*

Mon 07:55:22 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~nods and smiles to wolf pup~

~nods to tenderheart~ If a submissive wants to be relieved of a collar and the dominant who owns the collar won't do it, or can't for some reason, I believe the protocol is request it from a respected dominant of good standing in the community.

Not just take it off themselves.

Mon 07:56:12 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~smiles at chrissa~

Mon 07:56:45 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Collars were adopted by much of the BDSM community in the 1950s. Prior to that The Old Guard used all sorts of body decoration to indicate Owner and owned. Much like a "Nose Gay" in the 19th Centuary indicated that the Woman wearing it was more than happy to cane a bright young man in need of caning.

Mon 07:57:24 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Welcome chrissa.

Mon 07:58:03 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nodding...yes Mistress had to take the protection of me...She had to remove the collar from teh abuser and let me know right from the getgo that i was prtected by Her and that no one waws going to hurt me again...i was very gratefull for that a nd She also did a public ceremony to let O/ones know that i was under Her protection so that the abusers wouldnt try to attack me...so being public in that regard to me was indeed a protection both incollar and in public protacol

Mon 07:58:06 PM EDT Apr 5 wolf pup . . . when i was collared to Belinda and she left because of RT issues, i still bore mine for almost a half a year waiting till She might return, just because She was gone, and even though i was missing Her and felt... left behind and lost, my commitment still held firm. i dont even recall what it was when i finally took it off, but there were a lot of conversations i remember having with those i trusted before it came to that

Mon 07:58:33 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . Good eve pup

Hello there chrissa

Mon 07:58:42 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~listens to tenderheart and smiles thoughtfully~

In a relationship with me, a submissive only obeys if they ~want~ to. They actually have to want to, for themselves. It can't be ONLY because I want them to. Even if it's something they don't like, they must want to obey me.

If they don't, we need to talk. ~s~

Mon 07:58:56 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . What are some of the Questions each of Your have been asked on this subject in the past?

Mon 08:01:10 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . Interesting, Solstice, makes sense though

Mon 08:01:44 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . I Myself have been asked if I am less of a Woman because I need to have submissives kneeling to Me, My Dark Twin..*wry smile* Oddly enough, I have never felt like less of a Female..

Mon 08:01:48 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . for a male submissibr the stereo tye is why are you doing this? your not a man..why do you feel like you can give away power to someone like that...

Mon 08:01:49 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~nods hearing tenderheart~ That is one of biggest values in BDSM - the protection from abuse.

Unfortunately, I have found increasingly BDSM has become almost a breeding ground for abusers who have no understanding of why this culture even exists.

Mon 08:02:15 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . loyalty wolf pup is something admired by All Dom/me.

Mon 08:03:06 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~laughs~ Ah, Ms. Rose - did you tell them that you don't "need" them to, they just ~want~ to? ~w~

Mon 08:03:07 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . or outright telling me that i am less of a man because i dont TAKE control of the situation and make Her the submissive because that is the way that things are supposed to be

Mon 08:03:32 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . *shakes head* Abuse... it has no place in this community. W/we are about so much more.

Mon 08:03:58 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~nods hearing wolf pup, understanding~

Mon 08:04:42 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Well, tenderheart, I've been told by several that I just haven't met the right dominant man yet. ~chuckle~

Mon 08:05:29 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Oh, and this came from ... males dominants, exclusively. ~g~

Mon 08:05:31 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . *Tries hard not to chuckle as I hear Solstice*

Mon 08:06:22 PM EDT Apr 5 ~chrissa~ . . . *rolls my eyes at hearing that*

Mon 08:06:26 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grins* I have said something like that, Ms. Solstice..and I too have been told I haven't met 'the right dominant man' yet..and I agree, wolf pup..loyalty is one of My cornerstones if a one wants to submit to Me.

Mon 08:06:47 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . *looking thoroughly confused to both tenderheart and Solstice* ... as though either of you would be less of who you are through being either submissive or Dominant.. baffling to me that people (society) is stuck in those perceptions..

Mon 08:07:31 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nodding to Mistress remembering that was the first thing that She told me when i was accepting Her collar of concideration

Mon 08:07:40 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~grins~ I think every female dominant hears that several times throughout her lifetime.

Mon 08:08:14 PM EDT Apr 5 lilith~ . . . Reads back.

Mon 08:08:21 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Zilla, BDSM is still taught to young psychology students from Abnormal Psych Books.

Mon 08:08:21 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nods to Solstice and every male submissive as well ..

Mon 08:08:48 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . I know, right? ~nods to Zilla~

Mon 08:09:02 PM EDT Apr 5 ~chrissa~ . . . what is “normal” psych. *giggles* we are all a little crazy as a species.

Mon 08:09:06 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . One wonders if that can be said to a female dominant with a straight face?

Mon 08:09:07 PM EDT Apr 5 wolf pup . . . there are definitely a lot of cultural challenges for males submissives... though i think that might make up an entirely different night's topic to plumb that one

Mon 08:09:20 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nodding to M'Lord Dark Traveler...and also taught as abnormal abusive behavior and that a collar is something to detest as infringeing on my persoal freedoms...

Mon 08:09:24 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . Wow. I had not known that part Dark Traveler. Explains a lot then.

Mon 08:09:44 PM EDT Apr 5 wolf pup . . . challenging gender stereotypes? *trying to think how that might be more inclusive*

Mon 08:09:51 PM EDT Apr 5 ~chrissa~ . . . id love to have a discussion about make submissives if someone is willing to lead one in the future!! (Just throwing that out there)

Mon 08:09:52 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . ~smiles at lilith~ I love your new choice of name, btw.

Mon 08:10:44 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . It would depend on who you thing has the straight face, Dark Traveler - the woman or the person saying it. ~w~

Mon 08:10:53 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . thing=think

Mon 08:11:06 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . chrissa, submitting to a one is not considered "normal". W/we are each expected to be O/ourselves. However, play tht involves Dominance and submission usually includes some sort of physicality that is considered dangerous... aka abnormal.

Mon 08:11:12 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . Mistress gives me quite a bit of freedom with my wearing Her collar...but i also always defer to Her wishes and Her opinions on something before i go do it myself...i always consult Her on many things in RL as my Domme

Mon 08:11:46 PM EDT Apr 5 lilith~ . . . Solstice thank you, there's reasons to it for a non time out time.

Mon 08:12:00 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Wry smile* I know that T/those of U/us W/who embrace the Lifestyle, Collars and all, are considered 'weird' or 'abnormal'.

Mon 08:12:29 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . The person saying such a thing. They have not considered at all who they are speaking to. I question their understanding of the established dynamics.

Mon 08:13:05 PM EDT Apr 5 ~chrissa~ . . . *smiles* i understand Dark Traveler - i meant to point to what IS considered “normal” because a lot of that is dangerous too. Or perhaps that there is no such thing as normal, really. But of course whatever society deems acceptable, which changes like the wind.

Mon 08:13:10 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . I am certain that there are those of us that even with the Lifestyle are considered weird or abnormal..

Mon 08:13:41 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grins to M'Lord Zilla* I Myself have always considered Myself strange and interesting...

Mon 08:14:05 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . I'm considered weird by folks in and out of the lifestyle. ~grins~

Mon 08:14:28 PM EDT Apr 5 wolf pup . . . *is definitely weird, giggles*

Mon 08:14:36 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . *equal grinning*

Mon 08:14:44 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Zilla, I have had the pleasure of an evening with the LadyGwynethRose and am willing to vouch for what She just told You.

Mon 08:15:17 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . but then where is the FUN in being "normal" anyway?

Mon 08:15:18 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Well, even saying it, Dark Traveler, advertises their ignorance. ~s~ So they've pretty much insulted their own self without realising it. ~grin~

Mon 08:15:21 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . And that is bad in what way Solstice?

Mon 08:15:22 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grins to My Dark Twin..*

Mon 08:15:55 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . Thank you Dark Traveler for that confirmation..

Mon 08:16:04 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Oh they did that for sure... *smiles at Solstice*

Mon 08:16:23 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . And what IS 'normal' anyway? Is it like... the universal constant or something, like the speed of light?

Mon 08:16:32 PM EDT Apr 5 lilith~ . . . Is always essentric and likes the term.

Mon 08:16:53 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Nothing. ~l~ That's why I chuckle whenever I hear it.

Mon 08:17:27 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Would the term 'eccentric' apply, Ms. Rose? ~g~

Mon 08:17:41 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . thinking of collars being something needed in RL to submit...no..sometimes Mistress just gives me THE VOICE and instantly i snap into my subby mode and obey Her commands instantly

Mon 08:18:07 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . *Looking at the Clock*... W/we seem to have drifted from O/our subject. Have W/we exhausted the Collar Subject?

Mon 08:18:46 PM EDT Apr 5 ~chrissa~ . . . i have a RT collar though my dynamic is VT. i like that. It’s a dainty, discreet O ring on a little chain! *caresses it* makes me smile every time i look in the mirror, which typically wouldn’t happen. *playful laugh*

Mon 08:19:10 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . *Withdraws the question as I read tenderheart{GRs alpha}'s last post.

Mon 08:19:32 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . I have a question of collars in VT... are they typically presented with brackets, or are there other methods?

Mon 08:19:35 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . or even THE LOOK that She can give me...i rmember one time in a BOOT store...picking out Her boots and she said..KNEEL and instantly i did and started to lace up Her boots and the guy watching was like...WHAAAT?? or one time W/we went into an adult store just for the fun of it and the sales girl questioned my age *lol* and Mistress said and YES he IS my submissive...and i just said...yes Mistress...

Mon 08:19:40 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . I think W/we have discussed the Collars and Their meanings well, My Dark Twin and I thank You for starting the discussion.

Mon 08:19:45 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . No, a collar is not needed for submission, nor dominance. The collar symbolises not the exchange, but the commitment itself of one to the other.

Mon 08:20:31 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . Exactly, Ms. Solstice., very well put.

Mon 08:20:34 PM EDT Apr 5 ~chrissa~ . . . Zilla, typically brackets. Either around the submissive’s name or next to it with the Dom/me’s initials. Or how lady tiffany has it

Mon 08:20:40 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . and also for VT, would the submissive have a physical collar as well, as chrissa mentioned? Though I suspect that is more to do with the Ppair than anything else..

Mon 08:21:02 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . That's been traditionally the way, Zilla, but there's no rule about it. You can get as creative as you like. ~s~

Mon 08:21:51 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . Mine have always had a Collar, VT and RT, if I Collar them, M'Lord Zilla...sometimes it is something as small as a ring or a necklace or even an anklet...just something to denote their submission.

Mon 08:21:58 PM EDT Apr 5 ~chrissa~ . . . i think that’s based on the pairing. i was collared VT a year before i got a RT one as a surprise. *smiles*

Mon 08:22:11 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . In some cases, they do, Zilla, but not all. If I collared someone in VT, they would be in RT, as well.

Mon 08:22:47 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Solstice has just made My point. The collar is what W/we want it to be. What W/we agree that it is and at the same time W/we know that how it is uses in as changeable as this lifestyle.

Mon 08:24:05 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . Thank you for the last minute answers

Mon 08:24:12 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Looking at the clock..* Unfortunately, tenderheart and I must depart...W/we have a few things to do...I definitely need to get that bottom reddened some more...thank Y/you again for a lively discussion and an enlightening one..as always, I learn from O/other's V/viewpoints...*Taking his leash into My gloved hand..* Come, tenderheart..your bottom awaits...

Mon 08:24:14 PM EDT Apr 5 lilith~ . . . Just depends Zilla.

Mon 08:25:25 PM EDT Apr 5 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . grinning up at Mistress as She takes my leash...hearing Mistresses words about spanking my bottome redder..my face sheeks reddening but my bottom saying yes yes yes PLEASE Mistress grinning as i follow Her out for the nght...

Mon 08:25:41 PM EDT Apr 5 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Wicked little smile and W/we exit*

Mon 08:26:04 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . [Dark Traveler]

My apologies, once again, I forgot to respond to your last email. My world is upside down right now.

In any case, I'd be happy to offer Gwyneth Rose the Host mantle, but I'm also considering how feasible it might be to keep it... 'rotating'. Perhaps she can just be added to the list of people who will host if there is no volunteer?

Mon 08:26:46 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Take good care, Ms. Rose and tenderheart. Thank you for your input, and enjoy your evening. ~s~

Mon 08:27:18 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . I tahnk You and tenderheart for being here this evening LadyGwynethRose. You have, as You always do made this evening exactly what I had hoped it would be.

Mon 08:27:18 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . Have a good night LadyGwynethRose and tenderheart

Mon 08:27:50 PM EDT Apr 5 wolf pup . . . have fun *grins*

Mon 08:28:03 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . I wish I would learn to type... Thank you My Dark TWin Sister.

Mon 08:29:00 PM EDT Apr 5 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *slipping in last minute to read back*

Mon 08:29:49 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . And at the secon Typo in two posts I think I will follow the Mistresses example and wish A/all a good evening.

Thank You Solstice for being here as well.

Mon 08:30:32 PM EDT Apr 5 Zilla . . . Have a good night Dark Traveler

Mon 08:30:33 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . W/we are pleased to see you fairest one.

Mon 08:30:43 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Yes, it seems the session has come to a natural close, Dark Traveler. ~s~ Thank you for hosting this evening.

Thank you, everyone. Have a lovely evening.

Mon 08:31:02 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . I offer You the Same Zilla... Good evening.

Mon 08:31:20 PM EDT Apr 5 Solstice . . . Remember that you can always access the Archives at the top and bottom of each chat page. The transcripts are posted within 24 hours.

Mon 08:31:35 PM EDT Apr 5 Dark Traveler . . . Safe Journeys All and all.

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