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Mon 06:00:30 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . Usually when people hear the word “denial” in a BDSM context, the initial thought is orgasm denial - not being allowed release. While this can definitely be a major aspect, that’s only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to D/s. In this discussion, we are going to probe a little deeper into different types of denial and what it can do for a dynamic!

This podcast was really insightful in understanding the difference between “kinky denial” and denial meant to change behaviors, as well the responsibility of the Dominant to be informed and the consent required. I know it’s long, so feel free to just look at the bullet points if you don’t have time to actually listen!
https://lovingbdsm.net/2017/11/03/dominant-says-no/

Here’s an article on orgasm denial that could be helpful to understand why some partners may enjoy practicing this kink:
https://www.kinkly.com/definition/1160/orgasm-denial

In my experience and perspective, denial is a tool to reaffirm the power dynamic. It is a potent sense of Who is in control, but just like any kink, it’s important for there to be consent on all the different levels and aspects.

Mon 06:57:10 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Entering, seating Myself..*

Mon 06:57:57 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . comeing in behind Mistress and kneeling down beside Her...reading the topic as my mind kicks into gear

Mon 06:59:00 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Stroking tenderheart's hair thoughtfully as I consider the topic...*

Mon 06:59:10 PM EDT Apr 12 Zilla . . . *entering and finding a seat, eager to learn more*

Mon 07:00:00 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . ~gets ready to say "No!"~

Mon 07:00:03 PM EDT Apr 12 lilith~ . . . Here but not for long.

Mon 07:00:38 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . *warm smiles to T/those entering...*

Mon 07:00:46 PM EDT Apr 12 rebecca . . .
*settles in next to Zilla*

*soft laugh hearing Alexandra*

Mon 07:00:56 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *moves in with a smile* hello!! welcome!!

Mon 07:01:26 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . Hmmm...denial...could that be not only orgasmic denial but denial in other ways??? Let's say the Dominant knows that the submissive is trying to lose weight...should the Dominant be able to say NO as in NO unhealthy foods???

Mon 07:02:14 PM EDT Apr 12 lilith~ . . . The topic is much needed, will look back in at what I miss.

Mon 07:02:21 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . *Slips into the room nods and smiles to A/all*

Mon 07:02:26 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *big smile as LadyGwynethRose totally hits the nail on the head* yes! it's definitely bigger and better than only orgasm denial... though, i mean, that's pretty hot too. *laughing*

Mon 07:02:54 PM EDT Apr 12 Mr Man . . . Hello Aa..nods...settles and listens..

Mon 07:03:26 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . Alright, we have a lot of people already here so let's begin! First, who here has utilized denial in their play or dynamic? *looks around*

Mon 07:03:40 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . ~slips into the room and moving to sit with Dark Traveler~

Mon 07:03:41 PM EDT Apr 12 Mr Man . . . Aall even..not bad..sniffs...

Mon 07:03:45 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . *warm smile to My Dark Twin..* I thought so too, chrissa...now, mind, I have practiced orgasmic denial with Mine before..and it is FUN at least for ME it is...*Grinning* But there are so many other forms, yes?

Mon 07:03:52 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . It's really a question of how to use the word no.

Mon 07:04:10 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . hmmm tilts my head in thought...good question Mistress...i DO know that Some in the Life but also just plains Spankers do offer " motivational " counseling on helping the person quit a habbie or indeed to loose weight...i dont know if thats denial but ... i would think it also requires SOME aspect of the trust issue if you are giveing over that much of your lak of willpower or power to the Spanker of Dom/me...

Mon 07:04:28 PM EDT Apr 12 Mr Man . . . Edging, but no real denial.

Mon 07:05:03 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . I remember watching a scene in RT...the submissive had a vibrating egg inside of her..and was begging for release but the Dominant (Who was holding the control) said nope...not yet...eventually He let her orgasm but when she did apparently it was cosmic for her.

Mon 07:05:12 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . ~nods~ Orgasm denial can be fun, and probably that's where most people's minds go first when thinking about denial, but there are many things one can deny for many reasons.

Discipline, kink, teaching, and... "because I feel like it". ~g~

Although, Ms. Rose... as a dominant, if I were helping someone lose weight, I wouldn't want to have to keep saying no to them. There's a point at which a submissive must say 'no' themselves.

Mon 07:05:39 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *nods lots* yes LadyGwynethRose... there are lots of other ways denial can be in place... kinky denial or for behavioral change. Sounds like You've used other methods before? *head tilts curiously*

Mon 07:06:00 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . Dark Traveler, as a Dominant, how do You decide when to say "no" versus "yes"?

Mon 07:07:02 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *grins hearing Alexandra... a dreamy look and then nods with a clearing of her throat* there's something about "because I feel like it" that is just..hot.

Mon 07:07:17 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . althought i would hope that if helping the sub or spankee to better themselves i.e weight loss etc...that there also is a dynamic of reward as well as the denial for posative reinforcement...i now when Mistress has done denial scenes wiht me thats always the sparkler and KABOOM at the end to work towards and build up

Mon 07:07:29 PM EDT Apr 12 Mr Man . . . Just putting a twist into the mix, for completiveness...using orgasms as reward for choosing well...

Mon 07:07:40 PM EDT Apr 12 Zilla . . . I have dabbled with denial in the past, but only with orgasm, though yes, it could be easily adapted to other aspects

Mon 07:08:03 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . chrissa, I have a very carefully developed contract with the submissives I play with. And, a clause that let's them say that My use of the word no isn't working for them.

Mon 07:08:31 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Yeah, I don't need a reason to say no, except I'm in a 'no' kind of mood. ~chuckle~

But Dark Traveler is right - HOW one uses the word no can have as much of an impact as the denial itself.

Mon 07:08:36 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *smiles, listening to tenderheart* is that mostly orgasm denial, tenderheart?

Mon 07:08:46 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . oooo, Mr Man.. i like that. *grin*

Mon 07:09:05 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . Just about everything you can think of has been previously negotiated.

Mon 07:09:29 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . Zilla, how did it feel to have the power to deny one what they are craving? how did they respond to it?? *big, curious eyes...and a squirm*

Mon 07:09:56 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . *Does My best not to chuckle as I listen to Alexandra*

Mon 07:10:00 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . True, Ms. Alexandra...eventually they have to do something for themselves..maybe the Dominant could be the Catalyst?

Mon 07:10:32 PM EDT Apr 12 Mr Man . . . Thats a take on helping one reach a specific goal chrissa.

Mon 07:10:44 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . I don't like to use sex for discipline or punishment. Sex is connected only to fun and pleasure (even when it involves pain).

So for orgasm denial, that is purely kinky sex related, not reward/punishment.

Mon 07:10:45 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . Dark Traveler, i find contracts to be very interesting... i've never had one, but i've heard You and lady tiffany speak of it before.

Mon 07:10:59 PM EDT Apr 12 rebecca . . .
i have been told "no" by a Dominant. Usually the "no" is delayed gratification though...specifically related to orgasm. like "not yet"...then a count down from 20 to 0...i don't get to orgasm until 0 is hit. that is HEAVEN. *bigolerin*...but in all fairness i was trained up to 20...it started with the number 3, then 5, then 10...then 20. *happy happy smile*

Mon 07:11:24 PM EDT Apr 12 Zilla . . . I enjoy having that power, but it is a tool that must be used in moderation. As one of your links suggested, using it too frequently leads to an unhappy submissive which leads to general distrust.. that said, the few times I have used it, it has been to great effect.

Mon 07:11:58 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . I have used other methods before, chrissa...so many times...*Thinking gack..* Let's see here...when wolf was alive, I had him bound and blindfolded and he wanted release oh ever so badly...and I denied it to him...I remember walking out of the room and leaving him in there, bound and blindfolded and not knowing when I would be back to grant that particular privilege...I have also had submissives that I have....encouraged????? to do things for themselves that were healthy or else I wouldn't have any contact with them.

Mon 07:11:58 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *nodding as i listen to Alexandra* denial as a kink is definitely it's own realm compared to denial to encourage behavior changes.

Mon 07:11:58 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nodding* i would hope so Mistress...that makes perfect sense...otherwise the sub would be constantly relying on the Dom/me to micro manage everything saying yes or no...i would hope that if its a RL issue it would give the sub the motivation to learn self control in whatever it might be

Mon 07:11:58 PM EDT Apr 12 Mr Man . . . Smiles at rebecca...

Mon 07:12:43 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . ~nods to Ms Rose~ Yes, I'm all for getting the ball rolling, and encouragement, support, all that, but don't expect spoonfeeding or coddling from a cold bitch like me. ~grin~

Mon 07:12:45 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . chrissa, upon another evening, perhaps W/we can address Contracts as a Timeout topic?

Mon 07:12:46 PM EDT Apr 12 Mr Man . . . Nods..

Mon 07:13:20 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *smiles hearing rebecca* i think that's the main part of denial that i found as i was preparing: there has to be trust in the fact that your needs, as a submissive, -will- be met... the question is "when"

so whether its the same session, or days, or even weeks... it takes time to build that trust and foundation that you know you'll be safe and taken care of eventually.

Mon 07:13:24 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . No contact seems to work well for some submissives...not all submissives, mind..njust some.

Mon 07:14:03 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . I hear You, Ms. Alexandra...otherwise My whole day would be taken up with micromanaging and it is too wearying for Me...*grins*

Mon 07:14:15 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . Zilla, that is such a huge point!! How did You balance that? Knowing when it's been too much, or when to maybe enact denial again?

Mon 07:15:15 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *shivers hearing LadyGwynethRose* that sounds amazing.

Dark Traveler, that would be great to have a TimeOut dedicated to that!

Mon 07:15:29 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nods rememberomg how Mistress did that with me on one of O/our first RL meetings *grinning* and even though i had to hold back while she was out of the room...i also KNEW that She was always in control and that i was always safew also...haveing had that done to me before in the past..on one of my first RL scenes and not knowing that or IF the Domme was comeing back at all because i was so new to the RL scene

Mon 07:15:47 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . I've had that in mind myself, Dark Traveler. Since you and lady tiffany have the most famous contract in the Castle, may I suggest you both co-host that session? ~g~

Mon 07:16:03 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grins at chrissa* It was fun and that denial just made it sweeter...not only for him, but for Me as well...

Mon 07:16:31 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . They need to be introduced to lady tiffany's Law Firm of 'Bilk and Weedle' LadyGwynethRose.

Mon 07:16:46 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . tenderheart, i think that's so important... feeling -safe- especially when being so new and honestly not knowing... are you a fan of denial beyond sexual as well?

Mon 07:17:03 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . *BURSTING into laughter with My Dark Twin...* Yes, I think that would be an excellent idea!

Mon 07:17:25 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . That would be My preference as well Alexandra. Get both sides of the coin so to speak.

Mon 07:17:58 PM EDT Apr 12 Zilla . . . That comes down to knowledge of the submissive and the trust already built by the relationship. Doing something when it feels right, but also not doing so every time it feels right. There are so many things that develop a rhythm, than need a rhythm in order for feeling to grow.. but.. a well placed "No" is discordant and jangly... however, if you use that "No" at every right feeling moment, then even that discord becomes a part of the rhythm.. so.. use it when it feels right, but also at random occasions..

Mon 07:18:11 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . ~smiling at the mention of Bilk and Weedle~

Mon 07:18:23 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Excellent. ~grins and jots down Dark Traveler and lady tiffany to co-host a Contracts TimeOut~

Mon 07:18:49 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . grinning* yes Mistress had given me a right good flogging and spanking till i was red and blue and purple with such good badges then tied me up to a fur covered chair..blindfolded me...and then left me in the room while She went out and had Herself a refreshment...i remember how i squirmed on that fur chair and just the anticipation building up...

Mon 07:18:50 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . *nodding to tenderheart..* There has to be trust on B/both S/sides of that C/coin...that the Dominant will eventually return/give permission for orgasm and that the submissive won't be left 'hanging out to dry' as it were..

Mon 07:19:11 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *smiles, listening to Zilla... a soft laugh* i'm so glad i'm not a Dominant... but i will say, there are definitely times that i'm not sure if i want a yes or a no... like, i reeaaallly want a yes... but then i kinda really want the no as well.

Mon 07:19:44 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . Use of the word 'No' in an inappropriate way can destroy trust between Dom/mn and sub.

Mon 07:20:07 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . gosh, tenderheart... *fanning her face a bit, imagining* i can only imagine how fast your heart was racing... and other things throbbing. *wicked smile*

Mon 07:20:31 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . ~reads Ms Rose's post about leaving her wolf bound and needy and grins~

I left my guy 'bound' and in pain. He was desperately needing to move, not orgasm. ~chuckle~ And he was bound by nothing physical.

Mon 07:20:38 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . blushes and grins at chrissa...oh yes it was indeed ..She is quite wonderfull at that

Mon 07:21:24 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . I agree, M'Lord Dark Traveler...the word 'no' needs to be used judiciously...otherwise, everything goes catty wampus..

Mon 07:22:10 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . And that bondage is sometimes the best, Ms. Alexandra..*Grinning*

Mon 07:22:23 PM EDT Apr 12 Zilla . . . Absolutely Dark Traveler. *nodding* Since that trust is a foundation, destroying that trust should be avoided.

Mon 07:24:10 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . So, there are a lot of ways to incorporate denial into a dynamic, sexual or not. Here are just a few:

- Not allowing the submissive to touch the Dominant
- When begging for a type of play, denying them and playing in a different fashion
- Similarly, if they want the paddle, going for the crop

Are there other ways you can think of?

Mon 07:24:18 PM EDT Apr 12 *~fairest~one~* . . . *slipping in quietly*

Mon 07:24:24 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . (so sorry, brief rti...)

Mon 07:24:51 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . Zilla, it's trust that makes BDSM work. Trust in both directions. The use of the word 'No'... especially. The submissive gives away a big piece of who they are when they lose the ability to do as they wish when they really want a certain outcome. It's one of the real tests of submission.

Mon 07:24:59 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . ~reads Zilla's post and nods slowly~ So much of this is "by feel", really.

When we discuss things, it sometimes seems like there are cut and dried moments, decisions, situations... but there almost never are. I could made a decision today in a situation, and make a completely different decision tomorrow in a similar situation but many ONE thing is different.

It's a really difficult thing to describe without losing the feel of 'flow'.

Mon 07:25:19 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . Good to see you aairest one. *smiles*

Mon 07:25:57 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . many=maybe ~flicks fingers~

Mon 07:26:03 PM EDT Apr 12 Mr Man . . . Listens ...

Mon 07:26:22 PM EDT Apr 12 *~fairest~one~* . . . Thank You *warm smile with a little wave as i catch up*

Mon 07:26:52 PM EDT Apr 12 Zilla . . . Absolutely Alexandra

Mon 07:27:00 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . I'm inclined to believe that much of this requires a great deal of thought on the part of the Dom/me. It's more than a by feel thing.

Mon 07:27:15 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . Hmmmm...excellent question, chrissa..again, I have used the denial of no contact with Me at all until they see the error of their ways.

Mon 07:28:04 PM EDT Apr 12 Zilla . . . Interesting chrissa.. I had not considered those other manners of denial.. most interesting indeed

Mon 07:28:12 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . "Not allowing the submissive to touch the Dominant" -- Submissives know this from the start with me - no touching without permission. It's one of my few standing rules.

"When begging for a type of play, denying them and playing in a different fashion" -- ALLLLLL the time! ~g~

"Similarly, if they want the paddle, going for the crop" -- Alllll the time! ~l~

Mon 07:28:37 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . Do Y/you think denial is a form of punishment? *head quirk*

Mon 07:29:30 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . *Simply loves a really thought provoking Mistress*

Mon 07:29:46 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . It is at the outset, Dark Traveler. ~nods~ You do have to learn a person, and each other. But it's been my experience that once you do learn each other, 'by feel' becomes more the norm.

Mon 07:29:46 PM EDT Apr 12 *~fairest~one~* . . . Denial for punishment is completely different and feels very different to me than denial for play.

Mon 07:29:48 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . that is tough, LadyGwynethRose... i get so sad without communication, thus effective punishment

Mon 07:29:50 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nods* sometimes if the sub has displeased their Dom/me the use of just denying speaking or such is also VERY effective more so then getting physical discipline...its a different kind of denial but it can be quite effective from a mental standpoint

Mon 07:30:27 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . Denial can be punishment but is more often a tool used in submissive testing.

Mon 07:30:29 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *smiles to Zilla and Alexandra*

*nodding to fairest* how do they feel different for you?

Mon 07:30:44 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . I agree, fairest one and I think tenderheart would agree with that also...denial for punishment versus denial for play has a different rhythm to it.

Mon 07:31:32 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Denial of myself... happens, but only in short bursts. I'd never use an absence of more than a day for disciplinary reasons.

Mon 07:31:55 PM EDT Apr 12 Zilla . . . Sure it can, but denial for punishment is entirely different sort of. denial for pleasure is more akin to a type of positive reinforcement.. while denial for punishment has similarities to negative reinforcement

Mon 07:31:59 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . submissive testing, Dark Traveler? not just...to make them more desperate for You? *eyes twinkle*

Mon 07:32:50 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . yessss Zilla, it IS like positive reinforcement when it’s for pleasure... *dreamy sigh* thanks for saying it that way, ive never thought about that before

Mon 07:33:25 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nodding* oh yes indeed Mistress...for me it instantly lets me know that ive done something wrong and immediately fix or apologize for whatever i might have done....

Mon 07:33:39 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . I once thought that way Alexandra, but over years, I found that when I thought I really knew or understood a particular submissive I was capable of making terrible mistakes in My interactions with them. If anything, I have become more watchful of how I respond to requests by the submissive. There always seems to be... the potential for a hidden agenda.

Mon 07:34:42 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . I think most of the time when I say 'no' (if it's not disciplinary), it generally has the effect of kicking the dynamic into high gear - it feels like somehow, stakes have been raised. You know, that sort of feeling - tension. Good tension.

Mon 07:34:45 PM EDT Apr 12 *~fairest~one~* . . . Punishment puts me in a place mentally, that i'd almost beg for a more harsh punishment, if i was being denied touch and/or communication for the time period.
Denial of other things....puts me in more of a constant state of awareness and...hhmm...i don't know how to explain where it puts me, really. Not in a bad place, that's for sure *soft laugh* i like it all.

Mon 07:35:46 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . *Makes a note to be careful with Alexandra during the Annual Monitor Poker Festival*

Mon 07:36:03 PM EDT Apr 12 Mr Man . . . Interesring...Night Aall.

Gone

Mon 07:36:23 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Indeed, Dark Traveler. 'By feel' doesn't mean (at least for me) one takes anything for granted, or becoming negligent or complacent.

I suppose for me it mostly means, more intuitive.

Mon 07:36:35 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . smileing* in fact whatever Mistress has done to reinforce something that i might need to correct its ALWAYS helped me out...She doesnt even have to use anything physical to help me snap into line when i stray....W/we call it THE VOICE...it works wonders instantly in my case

Mon 07:36:40 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . Safe journeys Mr. Man.

Mon 07:36:49 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . I Myself have made mistakes when it comes to denial to a submissive...sometimes there is a backlash but when there IS, W/we talk about the WHY there was a backlash...not just that there was one.

Mon 07:37:15 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . Safe travels, Mr. Man..

Mon 07:37:40 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . *Listens attentively to tenderheart{GRs alpha}*

Mon 07:37:46 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . I can't even think of a clever comeback to that, Dark Traveler. ~chuckles~

Mon 07:37:49 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . in fact last night i had a very bad night..i was feeling really down and gtting to feel sorry for myself...Mistress snaped me out of it by text and "denying" me that feeling of feeling depressed and sorry for myself...so that denial was in fact a VERY good thing

Mon 07:38:12 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *nodding* the podcast talked about informed denial... the Dominant understanding what They are denying, and also the ability to apologize or speak about if they should’ve said yes

Mon 07:38:54 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . I mean, we've ALL fucked up royally, and not just with denial... but with bloody near everything. ~grin~

I'm a very different kind of dominant now than say... even 5 years ago.

Mon 07:39:39 PM EDT Apr 12 lilith~ . . . listening

Mon 07:39:55 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Yes to all of that, chrissa. ~nods~

Mon 07:40:03 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . .
What are the benefits to utilizing denial as a tool in a dynamic?

What are the potential issues in using it?

Mon 07:40:09 PM EDT Apr 12 *~fairest~one~* . . . When it's in more formal conversations, the denial of eye contact....just something that simple...the denial of movement "Don't fidget", etc...the denial of touch, denial of anything but involuntary muscle movement puts me in a very highly erotic-aware state....no matter what the conversation is.
i know denial for punishment is a big topic too, but the eroticism of denial for pleasure is like no other, in my opinion. Even if it's not necessarily sexual in nature, as i've stated.

Mon 07:40:10 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . Dom/me are not always right. They make mistakes, They are human. What's important is to take credit for Ones mistakes. Be willing to apologize for foolish mistakes.

Mon 07:41:05 PM EDT Apr 12 lilith~ . . . Was told by my then owner that hell no Chantilly couldn't have fire play done on me. lol I was quite happy.

Mon 07:41:35 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *grins hearing fairest*

Mon 07:41:54 PM EDT Apr 12 lilith~ . . . Reading back for the right thread.

Mon 07:41:55 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *nodding to Dark Traveler*

Mon 07:42:23 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i remember very early on.. Dark Traveler denied me the ability to cross my legs... it was to be a reminder of what i was...

Mon 07:43:07 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . oh my gosh, i love that *swoon*

Mon 07:43:54 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Sometimes, it's just to increase tension, chrissa, a "tool in a dynamic". In fact, I think that is what it is for me, most of the time.

If the denial is in that context, it can be as light or intense as the mood. But it's an element of the exchange itself - both are very aware of exactly what is happened, and the moment you're not on the same page, you feel it because the thread that connects you is broken.

That's how you know. Well, that's how I know.

Mon 07:44:02 PM EDT Apr 12 Zilla . . . Very much so Dark Traveler. Owning up to mistakes is super important for Dom/me.. if anything, it strenghtens trust

Mon 07:44:06 PM EDT Apr 12 *~fairest~one~* . . . Did you like that, tiffany? *smiles hearing her*

Mon 07:45:00 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding to My Dark Twin..* Dominants are in fact human beings and We DO make mistakes...*GASP* but if We are worth Our salt We ask 'why' and We.......wait for it..............COMMUNICATE.

Mon 07:45:04 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . An excellent description Alexandra.

Mon 07:46:53 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . LadyGwynethRose has placed Her finger on the real bottom line. COMMUNICATE. Ask when Y/you feel something is wrong or has escaped Yyou.

Mon 07:47:14 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Oh yes, that's very much how I use it, fairest one... "little things"... ~g~

Mon 07:47:18 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . smiles nodding to Mistress... * You have always let me know when i have done something wrong of displeased You Mistress...and You also NEVER EVER talked with me when You felt heated...and i always felt the safety of the D/discussion... You always insisted on no play when You felt mad...so in a sense that too is a denial to let me know and think about what i had done

Mon 07:47:56 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i have been struggling with this subject.. and i listen to you all speak i feel a bit confused... it seems to me the discussion is about not giving a submissive what they want... desire... or need..... are their needs not important? is this some sort of kink like as in someone who likes submitting to degradation? there are submissives who like being denied things they enjoy?... or is this just .. punishments?.. i'm sorry i feel a little embarrassed even bringing my question to the room...

Mon 07:48:36 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . Yes, I have tenderheart..if I am angry, I wait...then W/we talk..when I have cooled off a bit..

Mon 07:48:51 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . I love that, Alexandra, thank you for sharing. For me, it reaffirms the dynamic to me. A well-placed “no” is a palpable reminder - or affirmation - of Who is in charge. And i love being under that power and control, so even if i reaaaally want whatever it is, i feel safer that i don’t always get my way... is that makes sense

Mon 07:49:06 PM EDT Apr 12 lilith~ . . . listening

Mon 07:49:17 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i did fairest one... it was actually very challenging.. but it kept him on my mind quite a bit... gave me a smile.. a little thrill... but i can't imagine always being denied desires... that is the part that is weird for me..

Mon 07:49:22 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *grins as LadyGwynethRose brings the big C word back for us all*

Mon 07:49:22 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . *Smiles as I watch lady tiffany practice what I have preached*

Mon 07:49:32 PM EDT Apr 12 rebecca . . . *hears lady tiffany's question...relates*

Mon 07:50:05 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Shaking My head..* I think it is more about denial of pleasure or pain, lady tiffany...but sometimes I do deny someone the ability to contact Me for x amount of hours...so that they may reflect on their behavior.

Mon 07:50:06 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . tilts my head* not necessicarily tiffany... as said many times that the denial can be to help BUILD up the submissive to a better person...so that the mistake is not made again... at least in my case Mistress has always only had to tell me something once if i displeased Her and it was always a posative result to help me do better in either my RT life or in the Ds dynamic

Mon 07:50:14 PM EDT Apr 12 *~fairest~one~* . . . That's very important, tenderheart *smiling with a nod* i agree...for One to wait to have the discussion or dole out punishment until there is no anger or hurt. And also a form of denial...in the punishment sort, that of course isn't enjoyable. Definitely makes 'us' think more about whatever was done, though.

Mon 07:51:15 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nodding remembering how much that affected me when i was new to the F/family when i had done something that was not right and Mistress did that particular tool and how it always made me think long and hard and improve myself for the better...

Mon 07:51:25 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Hmmm... well, lady tiffany, take a situation like this...

We're watching TV, my submissive goes and gets us popcorn, I take it from him, and deny him any. Yes, I'm denying him something he wants and likes, but it's a game... it creates a bit of tension in the dynamic between us, in that moment. We would both feel it if it becomes unpleasant for either of it and then it would end.

It's not like I'm telling him he can never have popcorn.

Mon 07:51:29 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . hi lady tiffany, that isn’t a silly question... i know it’s hard to understand. Many times it’s not a complete denial, but a “not now”. It’s a bond and trust that while you may be told no in the moment, your needs are still going to be met - just within the Dominant’s timeframe instead of yours!

That said, as with any kink, it’s important to have open communication. If you truly feel you’re about to break because your needs aren’t being met, that’s a serious conversation.

Mon 07:52:17 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Yes, that's exactly it, chrissa. ~g~

Mon 07:52:35 PM EDT Apr 12 Zilla . . . I have always looked at denial as more like a postponement of pleasure as opposed to a removal of pleasure.. so... while denial may frustrate a submissive, and at least in how I use it, it is not meant as removal but merely to delay and heighten sensation

Mon 07:52:35 PM EDT Apr 12 *~fairest~one~* . . . It's that enjoyment, tiffany...that heightened sense of awareness you speak of when He denied you that one little thing. i get that enjoyment out of being denied what i want, in a way just like i do enjoy degradation. Not getting what i want is a lot of it, but also to have to wait for permission is an adrenaline rush in slow motion, of a sort.

Mon 07:52:43 PM EDT Apr 12 lilith~ . . . I had the wrong idea tiffany so not just you.

Mon 07:52:56 PM EDT Apr 12 rebecca . . . seems to me denial (or delay) of pleasure...heightens the leasure when it is gifted by the Dominant.

when denial is used to shape behavior it is a negative reinforcement tool to change/shape desired behavior.

i prefer positive reinforcement...do the right thing get a reward...versus do the wrong thing...get denied

i prefer emphasis on being rewarded then being denied.

Mon 07:53:59 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Yes, a lot of the time, it is indeed that, Zilla. ~nods~

Sometimes, I can ride an entire day on the frustration of a submissive. ~chuckle~

Mon 07:54:13 PM EDT Apr 12 rebecca . . . *than (rolls eyes at my typist)

Mon 07:55:13 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . sometimes denial feels like a reward, though. *soft laugh* this is where i think knowing your kinks is important.

it makes me feel safe and...not in control when im denied things that i want. if i was put on a pedestal or given every little desire, i would miss out of something, personally.

but that’s also to say there’s a balance... if im denied too much for too long, i start to go numb or lose myself...

Mon 07:55:39 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . I'm trying to think of when I used denial as a means of discipline (either negative or positive)... and honestly, I can't remember if I have.

Mon 07:55:45 PM EDT Apr 12 rebecca . . . interesting point, chrissa.

Mon 07:56:57 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . fairest, that’s a huge point also... the anticipation for permission.. or even the surprise in permission.

it makes it feel more special to receive also.

Mon 07:57:13 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . I don't use denial of speaking with Me very often, mind..occasionally it is effective but if I have to use it very often, then I have to have a talk with the submissive to find out the problem rather than just denying them the opportunity to talk with Me.

Mon 07:57:40 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . im not usually denied as a form of punishment, personally... thank goodness. punishment sucks no matter what.

Mon 07:58:23 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . And, to be fair, sometimes when W/we do have that talk, W/we find out W/we are not really suitablew for E/each O/other so W/we can come to a mutal understanding and part ways.

Mon 07:58:49 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . in fact there was a time when i did something that i was totally in the wrong ...doubting about my collar...becuase of someone who just wanted to plant a seed of doubt in my mind out of spite...and Mistress REALLY knokcked sense into me...it was on 911 and to this day everytime that date comes round i rmeember what happened and how Mistress helped me by a time denial ... it was a very posative time for me to reflect and examine just WHY i had felt that way and how i TRUELY felt my devotion to Mistress

Mon 08:00:05 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Someone, I can't recall who, said "There is no reward or punishment, only consequences."

I agree.

Mon 08:00:24 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . ~nodding as i listen to Alexandra's example~... got it... that makes more sense....

Mon 08:01:23 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . *Writes down the 'consequences' quote from Alexandra.

Mon 08:02:41 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . fairest one.. but i wasn't really denied what i wanted?... it's not like i have some great desire to cross my legs... it's more of a habit i had to struggle with.... and that i get...

Mon 08:03:32 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . ~smiles at lady tiffany~ A very basic example, but 'm glad you get the gist.

~g at Dark Traveler~ It's a good one.

Mon 08:03:59 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . sorry.. i'm a lil behind.. had to step away a moment..

Mon 08:04:03 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *smiles and listens to the room*

Mon 08:04:29 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Actually, that's a really good one, lady tiffany - kind of a combination of a 'playful' denial and a behavioural one.

Mon 08:04:39 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . One must think of the crossed leg denial as a test of the submissives willingness to submit. No one is there to watch, no one is going to rat the submissive out... the question is do they really take their submission seriously.

Mon 08:05:28 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *nodding to Dark Traveler* so denial has to go hand-in-hand with obedience for it to be truly useful?

Mon 08:06:03 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . The submissive will know what the answer was... and have to live with the action they took. There in lies the... consequence.

Mon 08:07:19 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . So chrissa, you've said you enjoy being "put in your place". I know it's a figure of speech, but is it more the fact that being denied emphasises the dynamic - the fact that he controls you and you obey him?

Because when you think about it, it's really all the same thing, right? All of it... simply underlines the dynamic - intensifies it, puts it front and centre.

Mon 08:07:59 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding thoughtfully at all the answers..*

Mon 08:08:27 PM EDT Apr 12 wolf pup . . . *sets down to listen*

Mon 08:08:59 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . denial is really just another tool to express power over you, or Your power over them. *smiles* same as bondage or impact play... it’s a potent way to know Who is in charge and that’s why it’s one of my loved and hated kinks. *slants a grin* it’s meant to make you love/hate it... because your pleasure isn’t your own, it belongs to Them - whether it’s for a moment or for a long-term dynamic.

Mon 08:09:16 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . That is exactly it, isn't it, Dark Traveler. I've been asked by submissive, how do I know if they really do as I ask, when I'm not there to monitor.

My responses is always, that's on you, not on me.

Mon 08:09:47 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . Hello wolf pup.

Mon 08:10:57 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . yes, exactly Alexandra. *nodding* it isn’t that i get off on not getting what i want *blushes and laughs* but more that He is getting what He wants, even if it’s at my own expense... you know? But again, there’s also trust in that... and it’s important to communicate how it feels of course. but yeah, it’s the way it emphasizes the dynamic and power exchange.

Mon 08:12:06 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . nods to chrissa...yes there is a MAJOR elememt of trust in how this aspect is used *smiles*

Mon 08:12:14 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i can't imagine a relationship could last very long if a submissive was lying about complying... what would be the point if they were not getting something out of complying?

Mon 08:12:20 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . *Looking at the ceiling and thinking... ah yes power exchange*

Mon 08:12:56 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . ~smiles~ It's difficult to define that exchange, because that's really what it is. A flow between you, which affects both of you, and it's that mutual experience that is indefinable.

Mon 08:13:46 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . i agree, tiffany. i think that would be a major sign to re-evaluate the dynamic.

Mon 08:14:08 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . it’s beauuuutiful, Alexandra! *sighs happily*

Mon 08:14:14 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . ~nods~ Indeed, lady tiffany. If they're not complying "off camera", so to speak, then things will fall apart sooner than later, whether I know or not. ~g~

Mon 08:14:47 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . You're so emo. ~grin~

Mon 08:16:08 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *laughing* no shame in it. *grin*

Alright, it looks like things might be winding down. Any last thoughts or questions? *looks about*

Mon 08:17:16 PM EDT Apr 12 Dark Traveler . . . An excellent session chrissa... My congratulations.

Mon 08:17:45 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . Thank You, Ms. Alexandra for a lively discussion tonight..as always, I am enlightened by O/others V/viewpoints and I appreciate it..*Warm smiles*

Mon 08:18:02 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Nope, none whatsoever. ~grin~

You're a pro TimeOuter now!

Mon 08:18:26 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Ah, Ms. Rose, the lovely and effervescent chrissa was your host this evening!

Mon 08:18:29 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . And thank you, chrissa for all of the input about this subject...a good one, to be sure!!! *Warm smiles again*

Mon 08:18:30 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . *curtsies very properly* thank you A/all for coming!!

Mon 08:18:49 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . smileing nodding looking up to Mistress...* yes thank You M'Lady Alexandra...very fun discussion

Mon 08:18:54 PM EDT Apr 12 wolf pup . . . sorry that i only was able to come for the tail end of it

Mon 08:18:56 PM EDT Apr 12 *~fairest~one~* . . . Thank you, chrissa *smiles nodding*

Mon 08:19:02 PM EDT Apr 12 LadyGwynethRose . . . My apologies to you, chrissa...it was an excellent subject and a grand TimeOut!

Mon 08:19:25 PM EDT Apr 12 -chrissa- . . . it’s ok, pup.. *tugs on his tail*

Mon 08:19:33 PM EDT Apr 12 tenderheart{GRs alpha} . . . opps..blushes again* my apologies chrissa...* blushes really red

Mon 08:19:45 PM EDT Apr 12 Alexandra . . . Thank you all for your terrific input! And thank you chrissa, you're a success! ~g~

Have a lovely evening, all.

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