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Mon 06:41:52 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Welcome to TimeOut, everyone.

Please settle in and make yourselves comfortable, and please try to keep the meet & greets to a minimum, as there is a bit of reading to summarize the topic and give us a starting point before we begin.

Thank you. ~warm smile~

Mon 06:42:06 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Tonight's topic is Communication, under which falls Negotiations. I will go from the general to the specific.

There is some very good information about this topic at the following websites:

http://www.evilmonk.org/A/date00.cfm#com (I urge you to explore the site - it contains very good all-round references)

Mon 06:42:17 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Here is an excerpt from this site: http://www.sexuality.org/authors/lauren/Negotiation.html

"During negotiation all players must have equal power to say no, as well as yes, to everything. None of the negotiators should feel they have to live up to anyone else's expectations. This can be difficult if you are submissive, but assertively choosing allows you to find out what works for you, so you can spend more time doing what fulfills you.

This is about Power Exchange. The submissive who cannot bring themselves to the bargaining table and decide what she will allow and what she keeps for herself, is in essence not present and risks being the proverbial "doormat". The Dominant who doesn't take interest in the person presenting herself to Him risks doing physical, emotional or spiritual harm. There needs to be far more dialog about negotiations among everyone, newbies to old timers. Encourage the topic at your local munches. Get ideas from others how to handle different situations. Learn as much as you can about yourself, so you can communicate clearly when it is time to negotiate. Once you are done with the words... the passionate part will still happen, with more trust and less to worry about."


This is another good site to explore in general: http://www.sexuality.org/authors/lauren/AboutBDSM.html

Mon 06:42:30 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . https://xcbdsm.com/educational-offerings/handouts-and-resources/negotiation-guide/

Safety is NOT the sole responsibility of the top. Bottoms should be prepared to provide information and limits without being asked, they should also be capable of asking questions to determine whether the top is sufficiently experienced and prepared for the type of play negotiated.

Mon 06:42:42 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . That was the general. Now for the specific. ~s~

We all know, and have discussed many times, how important communication is in any relationship, but particularly crucial in BDSM and D/s.

Honest, open, clear communication between partners about every issue could mean the difference between life and death, well-being and traumatization, sanity and insanity.

A good system of communication usually develops over time, and for that to happen, one must start out on the right foot.

This is where negotiations comes in. When you are as yet dealing with an unknown, except for perhaps an attraction, or a particular desire, negotiations outlining what each of your expectations are, whether it's for a scene, or a potential relationship, is a good way to open communication lines.

We are all different and of course, will develop our own methods depending on our goals and desires, and our personalities.

But there are some basics to keep in mind at this stage.

The next post is an excerpt from Jay Wiseman's talk on Negotiations. He gave it in 1998, but these still stand in today's BDSM world.

Mon 06:43:06 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . .

1. People: Who will take part?


2. Roles: Who will be dominant? Who will be submissive?


3. Place: Where will the session occur?


4. Time: When will the session begin and how long will it last?


5. Oops: Both parties agree that any accidents, miscommunications, etc. will be handled in a constructive manner.


6. Limits: Mainly covers the submissive's physical and emotional limits.


7. Sex: It's crucial to agree clearly and specifically, before beginning the session, about exactly what kind of conventional sexual contact, if any, is mutually acceptable.


8. Intoxicants: Don't play if either of you is seriously drunk or stoned.


9. Bondage: Who will be tied up? To what extent?


10. Pain: How does the submissive feel about receiving pain?


11. Marks: Will it cause the submissive problems if the session leaves marks?


12. Humiliation: This can include "verbal abuse," forced exhibitionism, water sports, enemas, slapping the face, spitting, etc.


13. Safewords: I recommend using at least two safe words: one for "lighten up" and one for "stop completely."


14. Opportunities: Is there anything either person has wanted to try?


15. Follow-up: What arrangements can be made for the two people to spend "straight time" together after the scene?


16. Anything else? Is there anything else to discuss or negotiate about before beginning?

Mon 06:43:19 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . his list of questions is primarily intended for scene negotiations, but I think the can be adjusted to accommodate potential relationship negotiations to some degree.

Some of the links above have more detailed and exhaustive lists and ideas.

Not all of these questions may apply to your situation, and some of them may seem obvious, but it's a starting point to help you organize your thoughts about how to address things you may not have even thought to address.

Also, never assume anything is "obvious". Always be clear and precise, because you have no idea for certain at this stage, that the person/people with whom you are negotiating are on the same page you are.

Mon 06:43:33 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . pupknight's suggestion was specifically about how/if/when, etc. to address personal issues such as … well, here are his own words:

"i was thinking about things that a submissive should disclose to Dominants... and i don't mean things like just soft and hard limits. But like physical limitations... psychological disorders... weak hearts... my panic attacks...things like that. how to convey them, how not to see them as a... disqualifier to be kept secret, and so on
and so that its not just one-sided for submissives, advice for Dominants in how to deal with such and how to respond to them"

Mon 06:43:43 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . nfortunately, I am running late as some unexpected obstacles have come up and will be here as soon as I can. In the meantime, please read the information provided and explore the links.

Thank you.

Back very soon.

Mon 07:01:53 PM EDT Aug 14 Darkson . . . *settles in to listen...*

Mon 07:03:30 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . *settles in*

Mon 07:03:43 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . ~*kneels down next to You..smiles at You through'a swath o'cherry~bright hair...reads*~~~

Mon 07:09:44 PM EDT Aug 14 annie . . . Settles in and lestens.. Nods a greet to A/all

Mon 07:09:57 PM EDT Aug 14 annie . . . ,

Mon 07:18:56 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . .
Since Alex is late..when you're done reading, please feel free to jump right in with your thoughts.. :)

Mon 07:19:51 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . Steps in for as long as rt allows

Mon 07:21:02 PM EDT Aug 14 Roseblood . . . Throwing a thought out there. Neogations were really hard for me to learn. Chantilly actually stepped in once or twice and worked with me and a dominant or two to show me how. I still suck at direct questions but having someone else there helped a lot back then.

Mon 07:21:19 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Hello, everyone. ~s~ Still dealing with rt a bit but able to be here, at least.

~looks around~ Should we begin? Not many of use right now but I'm sure we'll get stragglers later on.

So to speak directly to pupknights query, my first thoughts on the matter are, that the kinds of issues you mention are exactly the kind of crucial issues it's important to mention from the start.

It is, of course, up to the dominant to decide if any of these issues may post too high a risk in the scene they plan, or in the kind of relationship they want.

If one or the other holds back this sort of information so as not to "scare off" the other, it would not be fair to either of you to bring it up at a later time... not only having risked triggering these issues in the interim, but perhaps building resentment in the other for withholding it until they were already invested in the relationship with you, especially emotionally.

Mon 07:21:42 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . For the disclosing part I feel that you need to disclose anything that can impede your judgement such as medications can cause you pain or harm in a bad way such as surgeries health issues mental issues ETC... If that dominant doesn't want to play with you because of any of those that is his or hers discretion and it could be because they don't know how to manage that so you can either talk to them about it and give them the knowledge but the biggest thing is such as panic attacks you need to you need to find a medium where you both know when it's best to shut things down signs you need to be knowledgeable on signs that this is coming on and you need to stop because you might not be in the right frame of mind to give your safeword

Mon 07:22:21 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . well... tgise are my thoughts up there... so i suppose i awant to know how/if others have negotiated dealing with unusual difficult limitations... like i did with my anxiety... not having well spoken about it sort of got me in a bit of a mess a while back

Mon 07:24:10 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . ~nods to Roseblood~ That issue is addressed in some of the links provided. As a submissive person especially, the first thing to motivate you into learning how to negotiate is the always keep in mind that it is YOU
R safety and well-being at risk, and it is YOUR responsibility to ensure you properly communicate your goals, desires and limitations.

If need be, as you said Chantilly helped you once, you could perhaps find a dominant friend, or just someone who is astute in negotiating, to accompany, or coach you.

Mon 07:24:45 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . Negotiations can get me into trouble because I am so wordy I find it best if you are straightforward in point form so as not to mix up the communication of what you can and cannot do such as I have had a full right hip replacement and I have to be careful how far legs are spread and whatnot because my hip can pop out because there's nothing holding it in but the muscles...

Mon 07:26:18 PM EDT Aug 14 Odysseus . . . communication should not be the cause of getting one in trouble.
if it is..... it says something about the One that you are taking that leap of faith for.

Mon 07:26:40 PM EDT Aug 14 Roseblood . . . Chantilly worked with me a lot and so did one or two others. I come from a family background of being taught to stay quiet.

Also sometimes thinking of what silknsteele just posted, collared Master at the time and I sometimes used me writing it out first.

Mon 07:26:59 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . .
I think negotiation is an ongoing thing..as months and years pass...you're constantly changing..things come up...or change..and ultimately..you have to have that communication..the ability to feel like you can say or ask anything..and it will be given weight..and the two of you as a team will work it out..

I also suffer anxiety, I think that's fairly common. ..I have some hangups due to past relationships...etc..experience...I think those are things that can rear their head..and so each partner must be aware and ready to hear..and really listen..and talk..and work together..

Mon 07:27:02 PM EDT Aug 14 ~black rose {BL}~ . . . listens

Mon 07:27:07 PM EDT Aug 14 Odysseus . . . for example... my puppy is communicating as we speak.. she is chewing on My right elbow, reminding Me that My existence in this life is to....feed her..

Mon 07:27:20 PM EDT Aug 14 Roseblood . . . First sentce was met to reply to Alexandra in my above post.

Mon 07:27:28 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . No communication should not get you into trouble I know if it's something that is hard for me to explain I ask for a timeout to talk freely to make it easier but explaining too much can also cause confusion and miscommunication... Lost in Translation I guess

Mon 07:27:29 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Took the words right out of my mouth, Odysseus. ~s~

Mon 07:27:30 PM EDT Aug 14 Odysseus . . . bbl

Mon 07:27:46 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Err... not about the puppy. ~chuckle~

Mon 07:27:58 PM EDT Aug 14 Odysseus . . . alex is into puppy play??

Mon 07:28:10 PM EDT Aug 14 Odysseus . . . LOL..... grins.. departs to get some kibbles..

Mon 07:28:16 PM EDT Aug 14 Roseblood . . . Changes with the relationship growing heather, or depending on the dom for me. Some things I feel more comfortable doing with different people.

Mon 07:29:00 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Exactly. ~nods to heather~ Constant and open communication is vital. Even things as simple as "I'm not in the mood for that right now".

Sometimes the biggest issues start from the smallest seeds.

Mon 07:29:32 PM EDT Aug 14 Roseblood . . . Alex Oddysseus puppy? Imp look then back to being good.

Mon 07:30:33 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . If you feel the need to hold something back and not tell somebody about your issues health or otherwise. I think you need to look again and wonder it to yourself why you want to hold that back in the first place.

You need to look after yourself because nobody can look after you as well as you can yourself

Mon 07:30:56 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Probably best to just state the actual issue, silknsteele. For example, "when I'm in this kind of situation, this tends to happen", then you can both explore the whys, hows and wherefores together by talking it through.

Mon 07:31:21 PM EDT Aug 14 Roseblood . . . Has held back a lot. I still do sometimes but try not to.

Mon 07:31:52 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . right, it cant bs ssc, if you arent able to reveal what is needed about your safety

Mon 07:32:10 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . It's important, on both sides, to establish clear communication lines from the very start.

Mon 07:33:22 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . I am learning Alexandra that point form works much better and a lot of situations... also everybody can communicate better in different ways such as in writing or in the dark or however so sometimes if you're embarrassed to talk face-to-face perhaps the other person will allow you to write it down call turn up the lights whatever

Mon 07:33:26 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . pupknight, you say "aren't able to reveal", which reads to me as though something might prevent you from revealing something.

Is that your meaning, or just a figure of speech?

Mon 07:33:43 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . *enters, reading back*

Mon 07:34:55 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . I can literally go a bit insane if I'm held down by the wrists..lower arms........so for me not to tell a partner..would be really irresponsible..........it could send me into a I suppose something like a ptsd flashback...and I will fight...

so yeah..telling someone up front...is just a must...any mental or physical health issue is a must..

Mon 07:35:10 PM EDT Aug 14 Roseblood . . . Listening

Mon 07:35:32 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . as in fear or embarassment prevent one from revealing it

Mon 07:35:55 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . That could be a serious issue Heather cuz they could think that was just part of the scene reaction not you freaking out so to speak... that thought is kind of scary for me actually

Mon 07:36:20 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . Daddy and I were just discussing the fact that I writer letters, silkie......~noddin' t'your post~ it makes me feel better..more able to just let all my thoughts out..whereas..face to face...I'm more likely to hold back...etc...for whatever reason..

Mon 07:36:32 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . Here's pup night and thanks if you have fear or embarrassment then you should take a second look at why you want to be with that person if you can't speak openly with them

Mon 07:37:18 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . ~nods~

Which brings up the fact that communication and negotiations would be different in VT than in RT.

Some things are irrelevant in VT, especially physical boundaries and limitations. But those very things are crucial in RT.

In both realms, emotional and psychological issues are important, but some types of issues may be easier to deal with in VT exchanges than in RT ones.

Any other differences?

Mon 07:37:29 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . Yeah..~Noddin' t'silk~ I can go for 'fully IN it.." to "I am being hurt and need to kill you to get free" mode in no time...

Mon 07:37:40 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . i agree ms steele

Mon 07:38:10 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . I think that's a good way Heather if that's what works for you. When I am training new staff my first question to them is how do you learn better by watching or by doing and I think that should be a question asked on how do you communicate better so things can be said openly it is amazing if you turn out the lights in a dark room and you can't see that person's face what you will reveal and what you can say openly where you can't when they're looking at you. Especially with a new meeting or hookup or seen or whatever

Mon 07:38:41 PM EDT Aug 14 ella . . . *finds a spot.. smiles and starts listening..*

Mon 07:38:52 PM EDT Aug 14 Roseblood . . . Emotionally may have more time to wait in vt rather then an over reaction in rt. But the waiting is also what drives me crazy in vt.

Mon 07:38:59 PM EDT Aug 14 ~black rose {BL}~ . . . listens

Mon 07:39:50 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . I have found Alexandra that some RT situations if done in VT can affect me on A mental and emotional basis... and I'm talking physical things like say let a spider crawl on me it's not a big deal but it would affect me emotionally in RT because of me my mind most things I can do in VT without an issue but small things yeah well

Mon 07:40:06 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . In that case, pupknight, I agree with silksteele. If you feel fear or embarrassment, you might want to examine your motivations and the connection itself to the other person more closely.

Because seriously, when it comes to these kinds of issues, they are uber important to be open and honest about.

To repeat, it is YOUR safety you are putting at risk by not speaking up. I would think that is worth a little embarrassment, and enough to overcome the fear.

Mon 07:40:24 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . And may I ask Heather how you and darkson have worked around that and how you let him know your triggers or how he's noticed your triggers and that this is happening and not part of just a general reaction

Mon 07:42:08 PM EDT Aug 14 annie . . . lestens

Mon 07:43:08 PM EDT Aug 14 Roseblood . . . listening

Mon 07:43:31 PM EDT Aug 14 BLACKLIONIII . . . *looks in to listen

Mon 07:43:51 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . In r/t...He's not come near my wrists..or my other "Limit" yet.....on this trip....but He is fully aware..and I think it will come into play..both of them..as I'll be staying quite a while...so I'll get back to you on that..~crooked smile~

Mon 07:44:07 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . completely agree, Alexandra, and it was not doing so that caused the trouble it did. am much more forthcoming about all things with Mommie

Mon 07:44:25 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . do P/people typically use checklists here?

Mon 07:44:43 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . Well do you know your own reactions to being triggered that you could tell him to watch out for Heather

Mon 07:45:31 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Good for you then, pupknight. Sometimes experience is the best teacher. ~s~

Yes, ~nods to chrissa~ one of the links above have "Negotiation Forms" available.

Mon 07:45:32 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . You have to tell your partner these things..there's nothing about embarrassment to it........your non-action could also effect -their- responses..their future play style....not telling them..and then setting off a bad instance..could ruin play for them...could give them...anxiety from then on....being upfront just sets up the best possible play...the more open you are...the deeper you can go into things....and love it..

Mon 07:46:00 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . oh now theres an issue, recognizing when a sub has kind of lost center because of a trigger and isnt communicating the problem easily because of the trigger... what do you look for, what differentiates even in more extreme scenes?

Mon 07:46:08 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . And that list I above also that I got from Jay Wiseman is a good starting point, I think.

Mon 07:47:22 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . *nods, not having gotten to open the links yet*

Mon 07:47:48 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . Well..my triggers are being forcibly held down by the wrists or having my wrists restrained, silkie..and He is VERY aware.... I can take it for only a few seconds..before my heart begins to race...before my mind begins to race..and the panic begins to swell up....He knows that to break that limit..it would have to be in small increments.....

A former dominant (Not castle)..used sewing thread..just laid it over my wrists....and told me not to move...that worked....I imagine it has to start in a way like that....for me to work up to real restraint..

Mon 07:48:37 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . But, I also trust Daddy...if we're playing and He say holds a wrist down...I know the minute I say....stop...He will.....and that makes me -want- to push through and conquer it at some point...

Mon 07:51:31 PM EDT Aug 14 silknsteele^ . . . But what about dominance and their limitations as well and how it can affect we talked about submissives but not so much dominance

Mon 07:52:33 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . ~reads pupknight's question and thinks~ Breathing cadence and rhythm, dilation of pupils, flushed skin (more than usual), sweats (more than usual), heart rate, differences in style of communication... pitch of voice, unusual stuttering... anything uncharacteristic.

Mon 07:53:15 PM EDT Aug 14 Roseblood . . . It happens both ways. Blood play/needles are two things that a lot of doms aren't into and are known loves of mine. Easy to give up for the right dom if he gives other things and I do to.

Mon 07:56:51 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Yes, ~nods to both silknsteele and Roseblood~

This is part of what makes negotiations so important, and open communication. As you say, Roseblood, there are some things a submissive might desire in a dominant, but would be willing to forego depending on the strength of other things.

Most of my "limitations" have more to do with what I desire and don't desire in a submissive than me, personally.

Of course, there are some very basic things I absolutely will not do, for the sake of sanitary or legal or moral/ethical reasons.

As I said, never assume anything is "obvious". Always state everything explicitly.

Mon 07:57:54 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . And vice versa... a dominant may desire certain things in a submissive, but can be negotiated depending on other strengths.

Mon 07:59:34 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . Daddy literally has zero limits..other than scat, kids, and animals.... ~soft laugh~ He let me know early on...physical limitations...was very upfront...and frankly when we played r/t..I didn't even notice any 'limitation'..so...but yeah, He was absolutely upfront about what could be and not be..

Mon 08:00:43 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . what are some other limits a Dominant might have beyond the "obvious" legal/ethical ones?

Mon 08:01:01 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . He's also been very open with any mental issues as well...as have I..I think.... ~thoughtful~

Mon 08:01:40 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . that's when it's possible to negotiate for having O/other partners to meet other needs that might be limits for One or the other, right?

Mon 08:03:40 PM EDT Aug 14 heather{JT} . . . Absolutely, chrissa...I have an autoimmune disease..that will probably one day make it impossible for me to play as hard as I can now..........when that time comes....I will absolutely understand that Daddy will still want to have play time...

we've talked about it a lot.....and about if He were to become physically limited..

Mon 08:07:39 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . I will not use an implement I have not practiced extensively. I don't 'like' needles, but would be willing to be trained in them. I'm open to certain types of tattoos or piercing ONLY for very specific reasons. Lying (including "lies of omission") is a dealbreaker, at any point.

Mon 08:07:54 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . *nods hearing heather* i think it has to be important to discuss that early

Mon 08:08:30 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Oh, and no scarification... at all, except for the light, temporary kind from shallow cuts with very sharp things. ~g~

Mon 08:10:30 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . The inclusion/exclusion of any "others" for various reasons should be another thing brought at the beginning. It don't think it's an issue that should wait for "somewhere down the line".

So that would set the stage for that kind of scenario, chrissa... how the desire to experience something your partner(s) can't/won't give you.

Mon 08:15:26 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Anything can arise at any point in a relationship that was not thought of before. But the moment the thought occurs, it should be brought up.

Maybe the issue of wanting something a partner can't/won't provide hasn't arisen yet, but for some reason, the thought occurs to you... or you heard it mentioned somewhere...

When the thought (if not the issue) occurs to you, is when it should be brought up.

It's good to be on the same page even with unforeseen things, or even if you feel like it is unlikely to be an issue.

Mon 08:15:36 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . that makes sense, thank You Alexandra *s*

Mon 08:23:39 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . so if a submissive wishes to approach a Dominant to negotiate... is that frowned upon?

Mon 08:24:36 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . No, of course not. This whole discussion is to encourage exactly that.

Mon 08:26:25 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . to start negotiations, what is recommended? i do like the list up top that You posted.... helps to figure out each bit of the scene. though, do negotiations also take out the element of suspense or spontaneity?

Mon 08:26:35 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . ~hangs out for a few more to see if there is any more discussion~

Mon 08:29:06 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . It all depends on what your goals are. With that list as a starting point, it's up to you to ask the questions needed and state the desires/issues/goals you have as clearly as possible... answer questions honestly...

As for spontaneity, again, that is up to you.

You don't have to lay out an entire scene within the negotiation. Also, it is the top whose job it is to make the scene interesting, and the bottom to respond in kind.

Mon 08:30:41 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . *nods, listening* i felt really empowered when approaching a Dominant, laying out what i desired to experience, and seeing if They wished to partake in a scene or not. even after being politely declined, it was a positive experience to me.

Mon 08:32:17 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . In relationship negotiations, especially in the case of contracts, I don't think spontaneity is compromised. How can it be? You can't cover every single scenario that could possible arise.

The idea of negotiating, and contracts, is to communicate as much relevant information as possible, so that each is on the same page about what the other expects and offers.

Mon 08:36:20 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . ~nod~ I think many might avoid approaching for fear of rejection. That can be very difficult to overcome for some people.

I can only suggest that it is kept in mind, that in this BDSM world, straightforwardness and openness are prized and highly valued.

There is no shame in being declined. You at least learn who is willing to do what, and who is not.

Mon 08:36:34 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . That's very true. Some may argue that negotiating and discussing things so "professionally" up front takes away the natural progression of a relationship. Would A/any agree?

Mon 08:38:12 PM EDT Aug 14 darkest dragonfly . . . offering ones self up can be very enlightening...

Mon 08:38:26 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . contracts from what i have seen are almost always more for the submissives benefit then the Dominants and a lack of one seems to lead more often to bad situations. or am i wrong on that impression?

Mon 08:38:31 PM EDT Aug 14 darkest dragonfly . . . oppsss sorry... that wasnt to topic

Mon 08:39:27 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . it was on topic of what we are discussing, dragonfly!

Mon 08:40:27 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . *thinks* not sure it's specific to contracts, but open and up front communication is almost always more beneficial i would assume

Mon 08:40:27 PM EDT Aug 14 darkest dragonfly . . . sits quiet and listens*

Mon 08:41:24 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . Also! i think that writing out or thinking through a contract would also benefit the Dominant.

Mon 08:41:55 PM EDT Aug 14 darkest dragonfly . . . oh it can be awesome....as long as its goes both ways

Mon 08:43:09 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . did you have contracts in the past, dragonfly? did you make a contract when you were a Top?

Mon 08:45:44 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . It all depends on what is negotiated, and how, I think.

I had a very tight contract with ella, but our scenes and interactions were still spontaneous. Our conversations were always interesting.

I mean, it eventually didn't work out on each of our personal levels, but I don't think it was the fault of the contract... probably rather, in spite of it.

Mon 08:47:04 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . did You find that building a contract helped initially?

Mon 08:48:20 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . ella, if you're still here, did you find it easier to negotiate when it was written out?

that's my dilemma... i am often not even sure what to negotiate at this point. if i can see all the expectations, then i can see what is something I agree to or things id rather discuss.

Mon 08:48:58 PM EDT Aug 14 ella . . . *chimes in*

Definitely not as a result of the contract. It was a very helpful thing in our relationship, Alexandra. i would recommend it to everyone- however, i do think that the effect of a contract would largely be dependent on the Dominant's own communication skills, their ability to turn that tool into something productive. Intelligence and awareness and perception- they're so important

Mon 08:49:20 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . I think contracts are for the benefit of both, pupknight. Or are intended to be, anyway. It, again, depends on what is being negotiated, and how so.

If a contract is onesided to either side, then that would indicate issues from the start.

In drawing up the contract for ella, it helped me think through my motivations and goals with more clarity than I've had before. It was very eye-opening, and ella agreed.

Mon 08:50:12 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . *smiles as the questions were answered*

Mon 08:51:06 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Probably the communication skills of both dominant and submissive. ~nods~

But there are sample contracts one can find online to use as a starting point, and can be amended to accommodate your own needs.

Mon 08:52:19 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Ah. ~sees her input and smiles~

Mon 08:53:27 PM EDT Aug 14 ella . . . yes, pixie. The points were all before me, so i could channel my thoughts to each one separately during the initial offering of it, before i had accepted. It gave me a hard reference that i could constantly go back to, and that helped in many instances later in the relationship.

Before Alexandra, i had never thought too deeply about written agreements on a personal level. But i think if i was going to consider committing to another relationship, a contact would be a must for me now. To me, it's the best way of getting the most accurate impression of the Doninant's mind and intentions, and now i feel like a bar has been set *turns a smile to Alexandra..*

Mon 08:55:36 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . *hears ella and nods* i am definitely drawn to contracts. it helps me grasp expectations.

Mon 08:56:11 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Oh, and as to whether the absence of a contract can lead to bad situations more often than not... not necessarily.

The contract I had with ella was the first I've ever done, and I've had some pretty good relationships, both rt and vt. ~g~

Mon 08:56:49 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . ~smiles back~

Mon 08:58:07 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . *smiles and quiets, feeling pretty content*

Mon 08:59:27 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . I don't know that I would say the same... that now I've done a contract, and it was good, I'd always do one from now on.

I think it depends on the situation and the person. As always. I'm a very instinctive/intuitive person, and that has led me right for the most part all my life. I always wing it. ~chuckle~

But if a situation "feels" like a contract might be a good idea, sure, I'd do another one. ~s~

Mon 09:00:33 PM EDT Aug 14 ella . . . yeah, expectations.. that is a major point that contracts are good for. However, don't underestimate the ability of a submissive to find themselves walking in circles despite the explicit intention of them. It's a central point for communication but it's on the people in the relationship to practice that communication and keep it peaking.

i'm not a very good communicator.

Mon 09:00:41 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . But in EVERY situation, written contract or no, there are still negotiations, and constant, ongoing, open communication.

That's always the bottom line. ~s~

Mon 09:02:10 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Well, the best way to travel a path is to take the first step onto it. ~s~ So recognising where something needs improvement is that step.

Mon 09:02:19 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . *wrinkles nose* yes ella, there are things i didn't even realize i should communicate that could be affecting me without me noticing it. im like heather where i thrive in written word.

Mon 09:02:28 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . *nods* Mommie and i dont have a contract, but i do have Her collar and we discuss.... EVERYTHING. constantly

Mon 09:02:30 PM EDT Aug 14 ella . . . i think it can say a lot about the potential of a relationship- the effort that a Dominant makes in the writing up of a contract.

Mon 09:04:48 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . the initial efforts definately are indicative of how invested one is willing to be

Mon 09:07:06 PM EDT Aug 14 ella . . . Got to run- thanks for the conversation, everyone.

*twinkles a smile and apparates*

Mon 09:07:36 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . *finger wave to the apparating ravenclaw girl*

Mon 09:08:05 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . nini ellabella

Mon 09:08:28 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Thank you for participating, ella. ~s~

~looks around~

I think that's a wrap for the evening, unless anyone has more to say, ask?

Mon 09:08:47 PM EDT Aug 14 chrissa . . . im good, thank You for hosting Alexandra!

Mon 09:11:25 PM EDT Aug 14 pupknight{B} . . . *smiles* im good

Mon 09:12:38 PM EDT Aug 14 Alexandra . . . Okay.

Thank you both for the topic, and to everyone for coming and participating.

The transcript will be in the Archives within 24 hours, with links intact. Remember to explore them... they have some good info, about more than negotiating or communication.

goodnight!

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