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Mon 06:11:22 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Hello, everyone. Welcome to Timeout this evening.

Today's topic is Masochism.

No, it's not just about "painsluts" or the idea of "enduring pain to please a sadistic master".

Masochism, as it turns out, is a very broad, and sometimes controversial topic. Not unlike its opposite, Sadism. But we'll cover that on another date.

Fundamentally, a masochist is someone who actively seeks out pain as a form of pleasure, and from there, the concept can go everywhere.

The term in the DSM (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) is Sexual Masochism Disorder (SMD). Its opposite is Sexual Sadism Disorder (SSD). They are termed this way in that manual because both these conditions, when combined with paraphilia (sexual desires, typically involving extreme or dangerous activities) and psychosis, can and does tend to lead to behaviour ranging from the merely "socially unacceptable" to criminal.

http://nlp.cs.nyu.edu/meyers/controversial-wikipedia-corpus/english-html/talk/talk_0689.html

Mon 06:11:37 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . So now that the clinical aspects are out of the way, provided for context, ~s~ let's focus on masochism in BDSM.

The following links reference a range of ways masochism (or "masochistic tendencies") might influence how someone pursues pleasure (be it sexual or otherwise).

http://dominantguide.com/encyclopedia/masochism/

http://dominantguide.com/106/hurt-so-good-the-joys-of-being-a-masochist/

Mon 06:11:56 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . ella, one of our resident masochists, helped in some of the research for this topic, and her focus tended towards the practice of masochism outside of a relationship. i.e., giving oneself pain in various forms for pleasure, and the ways a masochist who wished to explore in this way can be guided and learn to do so without doing themselves lasting harm.

This would be a separate and entirely different type of action from the "self harm" many people use as a coping mechanism... a way to externalize internal pain. While many of these people seem to gravitate towards the BDSM world, these coping actions are not in any way considered BDSM and people who tend towards this type of self harm are generally advised to seek therapy and support.

So the conscientious, curious and pleasure-seeking masochist is our focus here, not the aspects that are considered "disorders".

That said, one may seek pain as catharsis, and in the BDSM world, that is a well understood and acceptable pursuit. This is where the "conscientious" part of the equation comes in. Rather than the type of self-harming that is dangerous both psychologically and physically, catharsis can be sought in accordance with SSC or RACK, the cornerstone of BDSM.

Mon 06:12:14 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Another risk that masochists usually face (as do their opposites, the sadists), is addiction.

Here is a good article on that, with some good references and recommendations: http://evilmonk.org/A/addiction.cfm

Much of what we do in BDSM, even when it's not directly physical, usually produces a rush of hormones, which then subsides after the interaction. This constant surge and ebb, if uncontrolled, can easily cause hormonal imbalances, leading to bouts of manic depression.

One can become as addicted to this hormonal cocktail as to any drug. In fact, our own natural hormones can be more powerful than any drug, and consequently more addictive.

The danger then becomes the pursuit of more and more pain that could even become reckless. Sometimes the desperate desire for the hormonal pleasure brought by pain can be sought just to relieve the depression from an ebbing period, or even after it becomes a full blown depressive episode.

Mon 06:12:47 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . So what are the questions we are left with?

How can masochism be explored safely, within the context of SSC or RACK?

How can a masochist exploring outside of a relationship, alone, do so safely?

All of us in the BDSM world partake in the activities we do under the stigma of "abnormal" from the rest of society. Masochists and sadists in particular, have the added stigma of being associated with criminals and psychopaths.

How can a masochist pursue their pleasures not only in safety, but in an empowering way that validates their nature as being "okay and acceptable", not something to be hidden and taboo?

What are your questions about masochism, your experiences, your opinions. Let's hear it all. ~s~

Mon 07:03:24 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . I would like to thank ella for the topic and her research work and input. ~s~

If you're here, ella, perhaps you could lead off the discussion.

Mon 07:08:05 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . *reading*

Mon 07:10:43 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . ~smiles at chrissa~ Doesn't look like ella is here, so if you have any comments or questions, go ahead.

Mon 07:15:57 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . i really like the information provided. very thoughtfully gathered! *s* way to go ella, if you read this later~

in the addiction part, is the depression or the absence of pleasure hormones technically what people call subdrop?
if one is a masochist, how do you help to control that addiction or how far subdrop can go?

Mon 07:18:25 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Yes, I believe what is called "subdrop" is an immediate result of that rush of hormones subsiding.

Mon 07:21:17 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . The best I can advise for how to deal with it is to try and pace yourself, and be aware of when your desire for more is escalating.

It can be surprising how just awareness of what is happening, why it is happening... can help that "depressive" feeling. That awareness provides some focus for that "adrift" feeling.

Mon 07:22:57 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . *nods* ive tried some things alone... pinching, spanking.... just to get an idea of what things feel like

Mon 07:26:39 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . *is here- finally- apologises*

*smiles to both.. read everything..*

Alexandra, you are so much better than me at organising information and separating subjectivity from fact. Thank you so much.

Mon 07:26:43 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . ~nods~ I got the impression from ella that she gives herself pain in various ways because she likes pain, and is curious about how different things, or different ways of using various things, feel.

So trying things on yourself can be just for "knowledge", as in your case... to see how it feels, or it could be part of giving yourself pleasure, in a masochistic way.

Mon 07:27:05 PM EDT Aug 28 -Blackcrow . . . steps in to read-

Mon 07:27:19 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . ~smiles at ella~

Mon 07:28:44 PM EDT Aug 28 -Blackcrow . . . How does one who administers their own pain know where the safe zone is? Every addict I ever met is a functioning one until they aren't.

Mon 07:29:02 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . hi ella and Blackcrow!!

Alexandra, that's how it started but... *chuckles* now ive been incorporating pain into self-pleasuring also

Mon 07:29:31 PM EDT Aug 28 ~IronDuke~ . . . enters...pausing to read the previous posts...nodding to all avoiding the formalities of hellos

Mon 07:31:34 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Exactly what being conscientious and self-aware is about, Blackcrow. ~nods~ The lines can become blurry very quickly, so being aware of the risks of addiction and undesired self-harm can help to keep those lines more clear.

Do you consider yourself a masochist, chrissa? Is the desire for pain as part of your sexual pleasuring a requirement for pleasure, or more to enhance it?

Mon 07:31:50 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . pixie-gal.. it's an interesting thing practicing control as a submissive from a position of power. There's a rush to the simple realisation that you can hurt yourself and might be just about to.. that anticipation..

i would say if you're experimenting alone, to start small. The stuff you mentioned is great because there's no real risk for any great harm with pinching/slapping. It's really when you find yourself craving the darker pains that logic needs to have a place in your mind and you need to start taking on the role of both subject and administrator, being aware of the responsibilities of both

Mon 07:33:21 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . Not at this point, Alexandra - more to enhance pleasure.

Mon 07:33:58 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . i suppose that can be said about most things though, couldn't it, Blackcrow? Your question really depends on the subjective.. who the person is.. their history.. their intentions.. their skill.. their power over themselves.. there are so many factors

Mon 07:34:56 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . Mmmm that can be very dangerous and difficult to find that line, ella...

Mon 07:39:55 PM EDT Aug 28 ~IronDuke~ . . . having read a few of the definitions...nods again to all

Mon 07:41:46 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . ..which is exactly why the exploration of masochism is not something to be taken casually. The first and most important thing that needs to be established is a clear backup of SSC or RACK. This can be applied to any kind of risky behaviour, i think. Once it is known and accepted that the curious one is of sound mind and isn't actually venturing on a self destructive path, it is easier to accept the thought of a masochist self harming.

Like most things, there is a stigma. And like many stigmas, there is an obvious reason for it, whether it's accurate or not. i started hurting myself as a child, so i never had to stop as an adult and question any 'new urges' - I just grew into them. But i think knowing yourself well enough and being able to examine your own motivations and state of mind in the process of all this is key

Mon 07:42:14 PM EDT Aug 28 ~IronDuke~ . . . Alexandra...I understand SSC (Safe Sane Consentual), but what is RACK

Mon 07:44:08 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . *listening*

Mon 07:44:19 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . RACK is Risk Aware Consensual Kink

Mon 07:44:43 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . As Alexandra already said, most self harmers are such because they are using pain as a coping mechanism.. sticking a physical bandaid over an emotional frustration.. it comes from a place of anger or loneliness or resentment or whatever- bad things. i think you'd know yourself well enough to know whether or not your curiosity had anything to do with all of that...

Once the intention has been completely and totally recognised and deemed as 'healthy'- the person can then go deeper.

Mon 07:46:57 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . ~nods to ella's statements~ Very key... essential, in fact. I think for every aspect of BDSM, but most especially the ones like masochism that are very often misinterpreted and misrepresented.

Mon 07:48:26 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . i think i've heard you say in discussion before that you believe RACK is more appropriate for most things, Alexandra..? is that right? i imagine it would be because it speaks to the full awareness and acceptance of the risks that come with BDSM practices as opposed to SSC which doesn't seem to have the same kind of.. forewarning..?

Mon 07:53:00 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Well, for me it is, and many (including myself) prefer RACK over SSC because it seems more... specific and all encompassing.

SSC assumes that everyone will think the same things are safe or unsafe, sane or insane. But what I might find safe, another may thing is too dangerous. My idea of sane could be someone else's idea of insanity.

All within the parameters you defined in your post above... "Once it is known and accepted that the curious one is of sound mind and isn't actually venturing on a self destructive path..." etc..

So RACK is simply about intelligent, mentally healthy adults being aware of and informed about the risks they are taking.

Mon 07:53:14 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . ..and i think the only way to find assureness in that essential element of all of this, is to treat yourself, the masochist (or might-be-masochist) just as any responsible Dominant would treat you if you were in a relationship and exploring pain.
Ask yourself why you feel like this. How long.
What do you crave? Does imagining what you crave make you feel better? Worse? i would suggest trying to trick yourself... distract yourself from that particular state of mind- use some other type of exertion like sex or exercise- did it help? Do you still want pain? More? Not so much anymore?
You don't just decide you're curious about and then pick up a knife, yeah?

Mon 07:54:30 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . isn't SSC determined by the O/ones involved?

Mon 07:55:48 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . That's a good mindset to adopt. ~nods~ If you're going to try things on yourself, treat yourself with the care you would want from a dominant.

Mon 07:56:44 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . definitely not just picking up a knife! *chuckles*

Mon 07:57:08 PM EDT Aug 28 ~IronDuke~ . . . pondering...
I have what I believe is a two pronged approach to masochism

first off...if the masochist is using pain to displace something...One can focus on helping them on improving that situation, helping the inner being, becoming a whole person....

but this often takes time...they need to start building confidence in themselves...

however...there is still a vacuum...as the self conficence takes time....this is where a sadist can be of help...in administering pain...I try to start with a foundation of sensual activity...building on that...then gently nudging boundries of pain...

Mon 07:57:40 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . If you're in a public play space, chrissa, and you think what you're doing is SSC, the DM may feel otherwise (even beyond the 'C' part) and decide what you're doing isn't safe or sane enough for his dungeon.

So in privacy yes, it's entirely up to the ones involved, but in public... it could be dependent upon the policies of the space.

Mon 07:59:35 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . yes, it's more tailored to individual senses of risk, i think that makes it work better as a philosophy for me too *lots of nods*

perhaps a good idea when embarking on masochistic explorations is to enlist a witness? Someone who you trust to adhere RACK that can check in with you whenever those urges arise- like a sponsor *little grin* it can be reassuring, even if you are experienced, to have One that is aware of the situation and the individual's intents.. someone that will always encourage the strength in your self control

Mon 07:59:43 PM EDT Aug 28 ~IronDuke~ . . . the masochist...while being played with may enter a space where she craves pain....and needs the jugement of others as to how far the pain should go.....

Mon 08:01:12 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . Ahhh ok, i see Alexandra

Mon 08:01:23 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . ~nods to Iron Duke~ I would still caution that some issues should be dealt with by someone trained to deal with such things (therapists). A friend or dominant can certainly offer support and encouragement, but not if therapy is needed. And even if you, as the dominant, are a trained therapist, it is unethical to be involved with your patient anyway.

Pain as a form of catharsis is certainly a valid way to go, and yes, a skilled dominant or top or even a peer can help with that in a safe way.

But pain as catharsis is not only the purview of masochists.

Mon 08:03:42 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Actually, ella, that thought popped into my head a few times as we were corresponding, but slipped out again every time. ~chuckle~

About when self-exploring, to have a friend to watch over you. Because even as a responsible and skilled masochist, it's often far too easy to slip into the euphoria of the moment and go too far.

Mon 08:03:45 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . the kind of masochist that you are talking about Iron Duke, is the kind that should never, under any circumstances, be hurting themselves..

i did always find it interesting though- pain as a form of therapy..
more interesting because *thinks it's in one of Alexandra's links maybe* ~wayyyyyy back whennn~ one of the forms of treatment for masochists, like many assumed mental disorders, was shock therapy.

Mon 08:06:03 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . shock therapy turned to violet wands? *laughs*

Mon 08:06:38 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . I think shock therapy was used for everything from depression to homosexuality to psychopathy. ~chuckle~

Mon 08:07:11 PM EDT Aug 28 ~IronDuke~ . . . Alexandra...I agree with you there...professional help is the best way to go...but I believe all can offer support and encouragement....if in lifes journey I know of something that may help another...one can suggest a direction...

Mon 08:08:27 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . *grins at the chuckle.. nods..*

It can be a difficult thing because an independent masochist (just coining that now) might see the practice as a very private practice. But i think it's important to look at the bigger picture, to be able to prioritise your wellbeing over any sense of solitude.. and not just that! Enlisting people you trust to have a small part in the process, even if it's just a watchful eye and an assuring nod, can in turn help to spread more discussion, more understanding, awareness.. all the good stuff that comes out when people actually talk about things

Mon 08:08:40 PM EDT Aug 28 ~IronDuke~ . . . looking about...not many here tonight

Mon 08:10:08 PM EDT Aug 28 chrissa . . . *steps out to RT to take care of some things* thanks for the information and discussion Alexandra and ella!

Mon 08:10:30 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . *cracks up hearing chrissa and Alexandra.. seriously..*

Man, would i have been a wretched soul back on those days. They'd have hung, strung and quartered me in the town square for sure.

Mon 08:11:30 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . see ya, pixie-gal *smiles after her..*

Mon 08:12:22 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . I just remembered that I had read (or heard) somewhere that self-harm as a coping mechanism can be put under the umbrella of "self-medicating". The pain does produce the endorphins that seem to dull the edges of the inner pain, just as alcohol or other drugs do.

So, not to add to the stigma, but just wondering whether even for a masochist who could be approaching addiction levels, it could also be seen that way... as a form of self-medicating?

Mon 08:13:21 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Take care, chrissa. Thanks for participating. ~s~

Mon 08:14:25 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . You'd probably have been lobotomized. That was another form of "treatment". ~nods solemnly, and not at all kidding~

Mon 08:14:43 PM EDT Aug 28 -Blackcrow . . . reads as the conversation dies down

Mon 08:18:17 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . *gets all thoughtful..*

yeah... it makes sense to think of it that way as the person self medicating. But if an individual is using pain as a coping mechanism, then obviously there are larger problems at hand and all the self medicating in the world won't cure you, only maintain you.

But i came across an article from a few years back that described the intention of opening a ward in an actual hospital (not a psych unit) where nurses aid individuals with self harming behaviour in a safe environment. i don't know what actually became of that but it reminds me a lot of all the safe houses where drug addicts can swap out old needles for new ones. There is a deeply ingrained association between these things and it takes lots of time and effort to shake that

Mon 08:19:41 PM EDT Aug 28 ~IronDuke~ . . . hmm...playing with endorphines...endorphine release....well pain is one way of activating endorhphines....there are others...instead of severity...one can focus on other things....I would think one of the things a masochist craves is the endorhine rush....and can be stimulated a variety of ways..and somethimes variety is the key....trusting One enough then played with in a variety of ways.....

Mon 08:20:01 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . yes, you're right.. *wide eyed.. shaking my head at thought..* it gets to me thinking about how many people could have been so valuable to the world... wiped out or condemned to nothingness because they didn't fit. Just fucked.

Mon 08:23:45 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . ~nods~ Yes, here in Canada there are support groups, either independent or a part of hospital programs, that are not set up as "psych wards", which have their own stigma... but more like a rehab facility.

I don't think they are exclusively for self-harming people, though. I think they include anyone with related problems, including manic depressives and suicidals.

The BDSM community at large, which sympathetic to these individuals (especially as many of them seem drawn to this lifestyle) generally tends to emphasize that self-harm as a coping mechanism for deeper issues is NOT BDSM, and should not be associated with it.

Mon 08:26:57 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . which=while

Mon 08:27:45 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . i can't speak for anyone else, Iron Duke, but for me, the endorphin rush is a heavenly aftereffect but it's the actual pain that i'm craving. The only time i can remember in recent history that i did not practice pain like i usually would, was actually when i was in a relationship and instructed not to. But having other things, other sensations- it doesn't take the desire away for me.

Mon 08:33:50 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . yeah and i think i agree with that, Alexandra.. this discussion is a testament to the fact that the subject is grey and the conclusions drawn are very heavily dependent on a number of factors- when things are that complex, it is safer for BDSM communities to just say no, this isn't a part of us. it's helping me understand the position of the castle in situations like that.

Mon 08:39:22 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Yes, sometimes it's best to make a decision on something and either allow it and deal with the complications, and disallow it and keep it simple.

It has a lot to do with BDSM being something of a stigma to the rest of society anyway, so it's important to be clear about what it is as well as what it is not.

What is included in BDSM culture is a healthy, safe lifestyle within which people can pursue their consensual pleasures without fear or judgement.

Mon 08:43:15 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . i agree with that too.. it's beautiful really.. because it's only once you get to the other side of the curtain that you can really see all the tiny little avenues that stem from all the big branches of BDSM that are more familiar and less complex.. there are countless things to explore and discover, and there are also countless perspectives on every one of those things. It's amazing, the practice of openmindedness

Mon 08:48:24 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Yes, some avenues branch off far enough to not even be under the BDSM umbrella. ~g~

If it doesn't include B, D, S, M or D/s, then it's out from under the umbrella.

For example, furries would only be considered BDSM if they want to do B, D, S, or M as a furry. ~chuckle~

Mon 08:49:40 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . That is not to say it's not respected as a fetish in itself... whatever people want to do, as long as it harms no one (for real) and is consensual, is respectable.

Whether it's BDSM is a different thing.

Mon 08:51:43 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . So, any more thoughts on masochism in particular?

Mon 08:53:17 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . *grins..* Bondage. Discipline. Dominance. Submission. Sadism. Masochism.
i think unpacking it makes it easier to see why many many fetishes simply don't count.. *trails a bit..* gosh, they're such pretty words

Mon 08:57:44 PM EDT Aug 28 jinsayha {Odysseus}~ . . . masochism... physical pain versus mental..
can mental masochism be much more destructive than physical?

sorry, been listening..*s* and learning

Mon 08:59:19 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . mm i think the only other thing i would say is that if you do get past the assessment stage and pain is definitely something that you wish to explore and you are healthy and mentally sound and know exactly why you are going down this road... arm yourself with as much practical knowledge as possible. Different instruments, what they do. Reading about how things might feel before you actually feel them is helpful in that you should be able to tell if you're doing it right.
Don't be negligent when it comes to the cleanliness of what you're using and the cleanliness of what you've done to yourself.
Know your body. Avoid any places with visible veins or arteries. Start small. Remember that the pain will extend and evolve as you stop and start to heal.
Aftercare.

*thinks..* there's a lot that can be said about all the above but they're moot points unless people are actually in those situations..

Mon 09:00:40 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Hello, jinsayha. ~s~

I think so. Just as any emotional pain can be more damaging than the physical, so can it even when it's for the sake of masochism.

Playing with the psyche... is extremely dangerous, and all involved must not only be aware of the risks, but have a very healthy respect for them and approach them with even more caution than physical boundaries.

Mon 09:03:59 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . I think that's a very good summary to take away, ella. ~s~

The links to the articles provided are very helpful and informative, for anyone curious about this subject, either for themselves or just general knowledge, so be sure to explore them.

I also think it's worth repeating that having a friend present if you are exploring on yourself, is strongly recommended.

Mon 09:04:13 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . *smiles to jinsayha.. listening.. agreeing with Alexandra's words in theory because i haven't actually delved into that side of things..*

Mon 09:06:10 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . *beams* the links are very helpful. and a few of them have 'related links' at the bottom that will send you on a whole adventure if you want to keep reading. Thank you so much for sourcing them all, Alexandra. And for inviting me I'm on this topic *tips my face*

Mon 09:07:30 PM EDT Aug 28 jinsayha {Odysseus}~ . . . hi, Alexandra, and thank You.
some feel that mental masochism is treasured. i could never fathom why, but it seemed to fill voids and cause great..hmm. satisfaction? sated-ness? i enjoy physical pain. mental pain (for myself) scares me, depresses me..but i can't deny it seems to have a niche for others.

Mon 09:08:03 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Thanks for all your help and input, ella. I'd co-host with you again, for sure, if you come up with any other topics. ~s~

Mon 09:09:46 PM EDT Aug 28 jinsayha {Odysseus}~ . . . *smiles* thank you, ella and Alexandra for all the information tonight. i will enjoy thinking on all of it in the days to come. i think i had better slip out and find out why the dawg is barking her head off. *slips out*

Mon 09:09:51 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . ~nods to jinsayha~ It does. I personally do enjoy a bit of that, but I do so very carefully, and gauge my subject for long periods before engaging in anything in-depth along those lines.

Mon 09:11:07 PM EDT Aug 28 Alexandra . . . Well, that seems to be a wrap.

Thank you all who participated.

Thank you again, ella, and enjoy the rest of your day. ~s~

Mon 09:12:10 PM EDT Aug 28 ella . . . *definitely and totally not having a fangirl moment and already skimming potential topics.. grins..*

It has been my absolute pleasure, Alexandra, thank you again. i have to run now, caffeinate myself before the boy's birthday party. *twinkles and out*

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