| •HOME | •CHAT | •FORUMS | •VILLAGE | •NEWS | •ARCHIVES | •JOIN | •T.O.S | •PRIVACY | •CONTACT | •HELP |
“TimeOut is a Safe place where dominants and submissives (both m&f) can discuss ‘VT’ and ‘RT’ D/s topics.”
Sun 05:00:45 PM EST Feb 28 Alexandra . . . Hello, everyone. Welcome back to TimeOut. ~s~
Pretend for a moment that the handle you see heading this post is Rebecca. ~s~ She is your TimeOut Host. The topic and presentation she has chosen for today is:
Boundaries in the Lifestyle- What are they, what they look like, how to put them in place
Boundaries are simple if understood. There are two main types of boundaries, soft limits and hard limits.
• Soft limits are things you don’t really like but, with communication and consent, you’re open to being pushed a little on them. For example, maybe you don’t like canes. But, under certain circumstances, you’re willing to give them a go. Soft limits guide the top in what they can do to push play into more extremes if that is what all people involved agree upon. The only person who can dictate if a soft limit can be pushed is the person whose limit it is. No one else can decide to push any kind of BDSM limit.
• Hard limits, ones which are no go areas, should not be pushed at all, those roads are closed, end of. Exploration of new things the sub is curious about though, can be pushed progressively. These BDSM limits can be more extreme fetishes like breath play or watersports, but anything can be a hard limit. A top might not want to be called ‘Miss’ because they are called that in their profession, and it makes them uncomfortable. A bottom might not want to be hit with leather paddles because they’re vegan. All these different hard limits are legitimate and must be respected.
Sun 05:02:53 PM EST Feb 28 Alexandra . . . I (and perhaps Dark Traveler) will be around for any monitor issues that might arise, but the stage is rebecca's.
Please makes yourself comfortable, and get your fingers ready.
Over to rebecca.
Mon 07:03:26 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *slipping in and reading the notes left....taking a seat by the wall*
Mon 07:03:28 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . *looking around the hidden room*
Mon 07:03:59 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . Welcome Eeveryone to TimeOut. and thank You Alexandra for the introduction. *warm smile* In respect of the TimeOut "Rules" and so Oour discussion goes smoothly, please keep greetings and farewells to reds.
Mon 07:04:10 PM EST Mar 1 yellowbird . . . *curls up in a corner*
Mon 07:04:18 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . *Checks in*
Mon 07:04:25 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . *svelte little slut moving in and finding a spot on the floor with attentive brown eyes, reading the notes so far*
Mon 07:05:14 PM EST Mar 1 majicats . . . *slips in quietly*
Mon 07:06:19 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . Aall are welcome in this discussion and what is said in TimeOut remains in TimeOut, meaning this room is a safe space to freely discuss the topic for tonight.
Mon 07:07:33 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . Those announcements handled...Llet's get to the meat of Oour conversation tonight, Boundaries!
Mon 07:09:26 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . in looking over what boundaries come first and foremost in the lifestyle i happened upon the information that boundaries are about knowing your own limits. As you can see from the introduction notes...there are soft limits and hard limits that serve as starting points for boundaries in BDSM.
Mon 07:10:33 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . There are lots of checklists for O/ones to go over and set those limits...do O/ones still find those useful and use them? Or is it mostly in conversation now? *curious as i listen*
Mon 07:11:02 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . soft limits are those things that a submissive is perhaps uncomfortable with experiencing in play but are also areas in which the submissive is willing to explore. Hard limits are activities to not be crossed in play.
Mon 07:13:06 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . fairest~one- thank you for bringing up the idea of checklists.
Limits should be known before playing. A BDSM checklist can help a submissive define areas of interests, introduce new ideas, and list experiences. No list is a replacement for a good and thorough conversation between potential play Ppartners. Here is a good BDSM list to start with from Bad Girl's Bible (badgirlsbible.com)...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WtGl55Rouq8qh9d4Cn5_o4l-9HHPOBWZxaOuA-CQuik/edit?usp=sharing
Mon 07:14:22 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . does anyone have any experience using checklists like the one above?
Mon 07:15:41 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . ive looked at them before just to get an idea, but i haven’t filled one out. they can be super overwhelming but i also see the benefit!
Mon 07:15:48 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . if you haven't used a checklist to help define your limits...how did you discover your boundaries in play?
Mon 07:16:40 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . rebecca? Do you think limits are set based upon the submissives experience in the BDSM Lifestyle?
Mon 07:16:43 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . i understand how the checklists can be overwhelming, chrissa! how did you learn about your boundaries...soft/hard limits in play?
Mon 07:17:04 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i've used checklists a few times...especially way back when first coming to the Castle. A lot of stuff i hadn't even heard of back then, and it was fun to learn and explore.
Even if the list isn't used, like chrissa said...it's a great way to get ideas and a way to bring up topics for play or fears.
Mon 07:18:15 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . honestly, by exposure to them either by watching O/others or having something introduced to me or talked about with me! as well as learning some self-awareness too. my experience has all been VT so i don’t have as many as i might have in RT though... but yeah, ive kinda of grown and adjusted limits as ive done so.
Mon 07:18:23 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *eyes to Dark Traveler*
i cannot speak for everyone, Dark Traveler, but i learned of my own boundaries through experience and then further communication with my Dominant/Play Partner about what i did and didn't like about specific activities engaged in during play.
Mon 07:20:40 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . Without benefit of a checklist, would a new to the Lifestyle submissive even know they had the right to set limits?
Mon 07:20:41 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . ~slipping in and finding a seat beside Dark Traveler~
Mon 07:21:19 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . fairest one- when i first started coming to the Castle i was introduced to checklists and initially it was a good way to learn about and explore things and yes...provide exposure to new things i hadn't even considered. *smile to chrissa* and watching play in the Dungeon room was great exposure to BDSM activities.
Mon 07:21:29 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . id hope that would be communicated by O/other members in the community, Sir.
Mon 07:22:13 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i don't think many would Dark Traveler..... i learned most of what i had a right to...... during the entire negotiation of our relationship. You were always very forthcoming about what power i had..... in defining our relationship.
Mon 07:22:38 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i believe that boundaries can change over time and experience. Either positive experience or negative. If something happens that scares one bad enough, that limit might be added to a list. On the other hand, i know for me...i have explored even some of my 'old' hard limits as i became more comfortable and trust is built.
Soft limits are always harder for me to define because i'm curious and want to try most everything *little laugh*
Mon 07:22:42 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . Some things you might think you’re into, but once it happens, you’re like “nope nope nope” *laughing* so i think just being open minded and curious is the best!
Mon 07:23:53 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *laughs* exactly, chrissa...even as much as we might want to...some things are just scary.
Mon 07:23:58 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . and lady tiffany- your comment brings up an important point...is it the Dominant's responsibility to communicate to a submissive that they the submissive has a right to set boundaries for themselves?
Mon 07:24:51 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . you have come to your first BDSM dungeon, RT or VT... you meet a Dominant that says, "Scene with Me." More a command than a question, what do you do?
Mon 07:25:39 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . They definitely can change over time fairest one. For many years Dark Traveler and i would review our contract and make adjustments.
Mon 07:26:15 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . I’d say “no thank you Sir” *laughing*
Mon 07:26:35 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *hearing fairest~one* that is an excellent point as we grow and experience our limits can change...so may-be revisiting checklists is a good idea as we continue in the lifestyle. and also chrissa, i totally have experienced that whole experience you just mentioned...like yeah..."i love the idea of being painted all over my body by You, Sir..." only to discover "um yah no...the texture of paint grosses me out"...*soft laugh*
Mon 07:26:44 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i think it is rebecca.... but lets face it... some dominants are new... they may not be formally trained.... so they may not even be using a contract. They may not be aware of the things they should be letting submissive know she can negotiate.
Mon 07:26:47 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . Speaking on what Dark Traveler and lady tiffany both said....i do believe it's up to the more experienced of the T/two to introduce boundaries and limits into the relationship. Sometimes a Dominant might be new and therefore, the submissive might be the one who brings it up.
Sometimes O/ones learn together...and of course W/we A/all learn from watching and experiences as W/we go.
Mon 07:27:09 PM EST Mar 1 majicats . . . i think there are definitely times and places with checklists.... i think they are extremely useful to those who are new to the lifestyle, or learning, both subs and Doms. However, i think that there are also some drawbacks that i've noticed. A new sub wants to be appealing, and so might "fudge" a little on a checklist. A new Dom doesn't want to appear .... less Domly??... and often doesn't want to take anything off the table- a false sense of bravado.
i think it is when we best know ourselves, in and out of the lifestyle, that we can truly be honest when it comes to the checklists.... but it is often then that we need them the least because by then we understand that if we cannot talk about it honestly and openly with someone, it probably isn't something we should be doing with that someone.
Mon 07:27:16 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . I would smile... flutter my eyelashes... and say..... why should i?
Mon 07:27:34 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *hearing Dark Traveler's question...thinking about it...listening to the room*
Mon 07:27:56 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . shouldn’t it be the community at large also helping to foster education? not only in dynamics but prior to those also?
Mon 07:29:01 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i would do all i could to keep my distance... but not say the world "no"... but then ~smiling at Dark Traveler~ i was trained by You to do such... it was one of the most powerful tools You taught me... that lesson.
Mon 07:29:29 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . Could these checklists also serve Dominants as well, in terms of exploring other aspects of themselves with a submissive?
Mon 07:29:29 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . That is such a good point, majicats... being judged on paper can feel intimidating for sure. But same can happen outside of checklists... agreeing to something you’re uncomfortable with to be “pleasing” - to not disappoint. And that definitely brings a whole slew of problems.
Mon 07:29:48 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . so majicats...how do you know your play limits?
Mon 07:30:26 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . Honesty is oh so important majicats....like you said we need to know O/ourselves and i have to be honest with me before i can truly let One know how my mind works. Fudging from either side can be detrimental to any relationship and possibly cause real harm.
Mon 07:30:54 PM EST Mar 1 BLACKLIONII . . . I know as a Dominant My boundaries have changed as I played with one over time
Mon 07:30:57 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . Agreed with majicats assessment on them. I think they are too early fudged and the relationship needs to be built on trust and honesty and communication
Mon 07:31:09 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i think that many submissives don't realize that the act of negotiating with a dominant for a scene..... is in itself... a power exchange.
Mon 07:32:07 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . *nods hearing Blacklion* yes, mine have drastically changed too since first exploring... it’s fun to look back and see how much things have shifted.
Mon 07:32:20 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . As have mine Blacklion things I used to believe were off limits now might be in play and those I used to think were a given are now not even thought about in certain situations
Mon 07:32:27 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . and lady tiffany..*warm smile*...i love your grace and your honesty in your communication style...you can be feminine and submissive and still say "no" to a Dominant.
Mon 07:32:39 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i believe so, Zilla...It's always nice to hear when a Dominant wants to learn and grows in a relationship, same as it is seeing submissives grow and become what they desire.
Mon 07:33:07 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . Smiles at lady Tiffany there is no doubt
Mon 07:33:16 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . rebecca.... you can..... and also ... there are many different ways to insure something doesn't happen.... and never even utter the word no.
Mon 07:33:38 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . ive never thought much about negotiating, honestly. is it a scene-by-scene negotiation or a higher level negotiation?
Mon 07:34:01 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Entering quietly, seating Myself*
Mon 07:34:08 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . Fairest one if we aren’t willing to grow how can we expect our submissive to grow?
Mon 07:34:15 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . what are some of the ways you know how to communicate a boundary to a Dominant without an outright "no", lady tiffany?
Mon 07:34:16 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . tiffany never really actually uses the word no. her style is a clever for of deflection.
Mon 07:34:26 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . mine have changed a lot over my hears of play as well *nods with a smile hearing BlackLion and chrissa*
Mon 07:34:38 PM EST Mar 1 majicats . . . *twitches her lips*
That is a good question. Honestly, i haven't "played" much in awhile... and for me, it was all about being pleasing.... i'll have to think on that.
i know that i don't want to be pooped on. i would have always said that was a hard limit. However, if someone i had come to love was brave enough to admit to me "I've always wanted to poop on someone's chest.".... i'd probably say we could try it once, and then discuss.
Mon 07:35:42 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . i love the concept of not saying no... *laughing* im not allowed to say that to my Master, certainly, but i rarely ever want to either. *hip wiggle* but to Others? i try to be kind about it, but if they aren’t being respectful or won’t get the hint, i think sometimes you just have to be blunt about things.
Mon 07:35:54 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i so agree, Junkyarddog *smiles nodding* it's refreshing to see it so often now...i think the stigma of the Dominant needing to be all knowing and strong constantly is slowly being pushed to the side.
Mon 07:36:28 PM EST Mar 1 majicats . . . For example. i'm not fond of my own poop- i'd rather not deal with someone else's.
Mon 07:37:10 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *laughs hearing majicats* i can't say i'm a fan of that either.
Mon 07:37:10 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . that is a tough one, majicats! oof.
Mon 07:37:11 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . I agree and it is a good step forward in my opinion
Mon 07:37:42 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . I don't have problem with a submissive saying no. But it had better be a very well thought-out no. ~g~
Mon 07:37:47 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . chrissa- my opinion is that negotiating about boundaries is an ongoing conversation that may start with a high-level point like a checklist that then evolves into a scene-by-scene experience with a Dominant. a Dominant of mine always checks in with me a day after a scene and asks me what i liked most about the scene Wwe most recently had...and also what i didn't like...and do the same..He started the tradition of asking these questions so that Wwe have a chance to learn together what works for Uus and Oour individual boundaries in a scene
Mon 07:38:08 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . There were a few words i wasn't allowed to say with BlackLion. No was one of them...i had to come up with other ways to voice my thoughts, and in those ways it became more of an explanation instead of outright no.
Mon 07:38:09 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . deflection rebecca.... i can lower my eyes... and ask questions....... i can flatter the dominant....
take for example a dominant who asks me to present myself in front of them.... i might choose to do so... and stop out of reach..... lets say someone actually would be so bold as to attempt to touch me... i could "slip slightly to the right leaving them touching air... or a mop".... i can also always make a polite excuse of leaving the room while peering at them through lashes... and smiling warmly at them.
Mon 07:39:16 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . ohhh, i love that, rebecca... i have a similar ritual, except im usually the one to approach first with alllll my gratitude and then thoughts on the session - what made me melt, what made me feel less good, etc... i really value that transparency and it brings more intimacy, i think.
Mon 07:39:44 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . So no with an explanation and then discussion, Alexandra?
Mon 07:39:47 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . to the Dominants in the room...how would You like a submissive to say no to You?
Mon 07:40:06 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i find it often like a dance....... the Dominant pushes.... the submissive bobs..... one moves left.. the other right...
Mon 07:40:27 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . It always situational with me, fairest one. There are very few 'absolutes' in my relationships.
Mon 07:41:16 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . I prefer they find a way to express their feelings in a different way. However if I step over the line and try to push her where she doesn’t want to go she has that right. Hopefully I don’t go to that extreme if that makes sense?
Mon 07:41:24 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . Hmmmmm...rebecca, for Myself, it depends on the submissive and the submissive's limits..am I overstepping them? How is the 'no' expressed? Is it a flat out 'no' or is it couched in more graceful terms? I prefer more graceful terms.
Mon 07:41:25 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . Agrees with Alexandra.
Mon 07:41:41 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *soft laugh hearing lady tiffany* i found myself doing that in the D here recently. i felt like "He" needed to read the rules and learn...so, i made it my purpose to help instead of just run away and ignore Him. He was obviously trying too hard to do things the wrong way, so i made other suggestions while bobbing and weaving *laughs*
Mon 07:41:52 PM EST Mar 1 BLACKLIONII . . . I also found as My taste in play changed the boundaries changed as well......things I used to think were playing on the edge 20 years ago is not even close to what I see as the edge now....
Mon 07:42:17 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . In any case, if I'm going to contribute to this discussion, I'll state for the record, and to the purpose of the discussion, that I think any boundaries need to be discussed very early on, on both sides.
If something unforeseen comes up later down the road, depending on what level the relationship is, that would be addressed as it comes up.
Mon 07:42:19 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . *listening to lady tiffany* hmmm im usually just on the floor begging *laughing*
Mon 07:43:32 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding to Ms. Alexandra* Communication, communication and did I mention communication?
Mon 07:43:48 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . I have to go rt calls bye all
Mon 07:44:33 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . Be well, Junkyaarddog..safe journeys.
Mon 07:44:46 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . i do think addressing it as soon as possible is super important. there are things i didn’t even think were related to BDSM or id never heard as a “limit” before, for example, things that might negatively impact mental health. so once i kind of had something come up in that vein, i had to communicate myself clearly and respectfully. and a Dom worth Their salt will truly care for a submissive’s mental health and vice versa.
Mon 07:44:57 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Not enough, Miss Rose. Communication.
There. Now maybe... wait.
Communication. There we go, that should do it. ~l~
~w~
Mon 07:45:04 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . BlackLion's edges are all sharp *little laugh* Those boundaries were a lot of times pushed in delightful ways.
Bringing up another way to learn...to introduce things i had fears about but was curious... softer ways just so i could try them.
Mon 07:45:41 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . I agree, chrissa..I have said before, bent not broken. As Dominants We need to care for Our submissives.
Mon 07:45:53 PM EST Mar 1 majicats . . . *feels a headache coming on*
Regretfully, i think i will call it a night.
Mon 07:46:14 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *listening*
fairest~one and lady tiffany and chrissa it seems as though all of you are expressing that there are ways other than a a flat out "no" that can be used to express that a boundary has been crossed. A sort of grace and bobbing weaving tactic. Why don't you just go start for the "no"?
i myself am very direct with my boundaries...i jsut say "no" but i folow it up with a well thought out explanation. because i have found being mmmmmm....less direct...has gotten me stuck in situations i don't want to be in. perhaps that speaks more to the quality of Dominant i have crossed paths with...*soft laugh* but still...even with Dominants i deeply respect...i still use the direct "no" approach. *soft nod*
Mon 07:46:17 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . The initial conversations are so very important *nodding softly as i listen* Patience has to be had on B/both sides.
Mon 07:46:27 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grins to Ms. Alexandra...* but there is always communication. Seriously, however, communication has to happen before, during and after a scene in My opinion.
Mon 07:46:34 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . *nods hearing LadyGwynethRose* right, hurting and harming arent the same.
Mon 07:47:14 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Mmhm. ~nods to Miss Rose~
Mon 07:47:17 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . Be well, majicats, safe journeys to you. Get better!
Mon 07:47:36 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . *nodding and listening*
Mon 07:48:03 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . And again, in My opinion only, any Dominant worthy of ANY submissive has to be caring and patient. It's part of the D/dance.
Mon 07:48:20 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . and yes, Alexandra and Lady Gwyneth Rose...communication from the beginning about limits soft and hard between the Dominant and submissive is VERY necessary!
Mon 07:48:22 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~hears rebecca~ I highly prize directness. Few things annoy me more than "skirting the issue" and "beating about the bush".
Although, it depends... whose bush.
Mon 07:48:54 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i am very direct also, rebecca....and the no came with the bobbing and weaving in my most recent example. That One was just very determined...as i was to teach Him that wasn't the right way to start things out.
In my relationship with BlackLion...there were a few words i wasn't allowed to say. No was one of them...so, coming up with different ways and better explanations was how i got my point across. i was always allowed to say what i wanted to say...i just had to be more creative in my words.
Mon 07:50:00 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . *Enters and takes a seat to catch up and listen for awhile.*
Mon 07:50:18 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . *smiles hearing rebecca* i have no qualms about being very upfront with people i don’t have a dynamic with or a bond to... but i do try to be gracious about it, especially in displaying Master’s property at its best. It’s probably just a different way of training, perhaps. But if i’m truly uncomfortable or being disrespected, i will absolutely say no without guilt and im allowed that.
However, as a slave, i don’t have limits or negotiations with Master. i can express myself respectfully or ask/beg for His considerations - but at the end of the day He rules... and my final choice, so to speak, is to walk away from it all.
Mon 07:51:02 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *hearing fairest~one*
and did you have the conversations beforehand with BlackLion about how you were to not to use the word "no"? and if i may be so bold...why did you agree to such a boundary?
Mon 07:51:02 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i can't remember the reason Dark Traveler originally talked about for me not using the word no... but he spoke of giving me other tools.... tools that i could use in dealing with other dominants..... i believe he felt just running around going "NO NO NO NO".. would leave me sitting around not participating in the lifestle... the room... He sees the negotiation between a submissive and other Dominants as an exchange of power.... a way to teach other Dominants... a way for me to learn how to deal with other Dominants.... a way for other submissives to learn from watching me...
Mon 07:52:11 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . and the same to you then, chrissa...why is it an acceptable boundary for you to not have the right to say "no" to your Master?
Mon 07:52:40 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . BDSM is all about communication between Dom/me and submissive. And communication is a tricky science.
Mon 07:52:59 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~nods hearing lady tiffany~
There is an art to negotiation. It's a dance, on every level - from first meeting, to long-lived relationship. It is indeed a power exchange in and of itself, rather than just a "means" to it.
Mon 07:53:57 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . That rule came well into the relationship, rebecca...and i was still allowed to say 'no' without using the exact word. He and i talked about everything and constantly, so there were many conversations about that and everything else under the sun. i used the word too many times in ways He didn't like, so He took it from me. He didn't take the ability to speak my mind though...ever...even without a few words that He personally disliked.
Mon 07:54:25 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . The word "NO" when used by a submissive in an open Dungeon often sends an "Untouchable" message to perhaps Dom/me. No is a command. Often not acceptable to a Dominant.
Mon 07:54:33 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . because i trust that He cares for His property deeply and wouldn’t harm me... and also listens to my heart when i approach things.. it’s like... *head tilts* in here and in life, i can have this wall up and just be very...removed or..hardened? But i can’t simply say no... it makes me really process the -why- of things and express myself in a tender and vulnerable way rather than just shutting something down.
Mon 07:54:56 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . It's a scary thought to me hearing that some submissives don't know they have the power to negotiate....or thinking there are Dominants out there who wouldn't welcome that discussion.
Mon 07:55:30 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *listening to lady tiffany*
i like that idea a lot lady tiffany...this idea that if "no" is not permitted there are other tools that a Dominant can instruct Their submissive on that communicate "no" a boundary has been passed. *nodding softly*
and that brings to mind the connected topic of "safe words" as a tool to employ when boundaries are being pushed uncomfortably. do Aany of Yyou play with safe words?
Mon 07:55:48 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . Master also replaced other words... but like fairest said, you can still get across the message without using a particular word, which also can shift your perspective on the conversation or relationship too.
Mon 07:55:51 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . *listening, chrissa, you speak from the position of being owned... what if you were not owned?
Mon 07:55:53 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . Agreed, fairest one
Mon 07:56:13 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . It's worse in VT than in RT, I think, fairest one. At least, in my experience.
Perhaps because it's hard to get into a club or dungeon without an escort, so you HAVE to know SOMEthing.
Mon 07:56:43 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *nods agreeing with chrissa* it definitely gets me to think of different ways to get across what i want to say. It also opened up more ways for me to think of the 'why' and then be able to explain that in deeper conversations.
Mon 07:57:22 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . I agree with Dark Traveler on that aspect of the word No.
Mon 07:58:05 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . submissives without Dominant escorts or known submissive members of the RT club never see the inside of the club.
Mon 07:58:11 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *hearing chrissa* i love that...your explanation...thank you for sharing...it really sheds a light on why a submissive would choose to not use the word "no" specifically...but still has a right to express when they are uncomfortable. same as fairest~one *smile to her* and lady tiffany have said *smile to lady tiffany*.
Mon 07:58:52 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . *smiles hearing Dark Traveler* well, it would depend on the Person, Sir. i am not submissive to Everyone that claims to be Dominant, so some i might use the word more freely, but still politely. “Sir, im very flattered but im not interested right now.. thank you for your attentions.”
Mon 07:58:56 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . Thank You Master... ~s~ You still explain it better than i...
Mon 07:59:45 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . I Myself use safe words, rebecca, if I am playing publically with someone who is new to the Lifestyle. Most of the time, I have negotiated with a one who may be collared to Me, so a safe word isn't as necesary. I have, however, used a 'safe sign' for even collared ones who are gagged and bound. I place a handkerchief in their hand and tell them if it gets too intense to drop the handkerchief.
Mon 07:59:48 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . Probably true, Alexandra...in RT, O/ones are always spoken for when being introduced and there is a class that A/all must attend to even be able to come to a play party or event. The meetings and classes are open without orientation...but, getting into the actual playroom, O/ones must have attended orientation and have the ID pass to prove it.
Mon 08:00:31 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . I think using the word 'no' as a response is too limiting. Restricting its use encourages expansion of an idea using better language. It engages the mind and forces thought. Similar to using the word 'hate'.
Mon 08:00:52 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . *sits down quietly in the back, catching up*
Mon 08:00:53 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *hearing Dark Traveler and Alexandra*
it's interesting that You Both have said the same thing that a submissive must have an Escort to attend an RT Dungeon...i have not found that to be true in my part of the world...an uninformed submissive can attend the RT Dungeon out here without an Escort...so as a submissive knowing your own limits, how to communicate and when or how to say know is VERY important.
Mon 08:00:56 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding to Dark Traveler, agreeing with Him*
Mon 08:02:49 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . submissives don't have to have an escort at the RT Dungeon here either...they still have to go through the orientation, and most that i've met do have O/ones who come with them, but not always.
The leather club is different...O/ones have to have sponsors and be vouched for and there are a lot of steps taken to join that part of the group.
Mon 08:03:14 PM EST Mar 1 Odysseus . . . An unescorted submissive can become prey. I've seen that a time or 2
Mon 08:03:19 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . Welcome back Gwyneth.*S* safe signs are not usully brought as it it mainly talks of safe words. I so agree when one can't voice the word alternative means of conveying should always be planned and implemented.
Mon 08:03:37 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . rebecca, is there an provision at your dungeon to train/mentor new and/or unescorted visitors? Even if it's just the specific rules of that particular dungeon? Or like a person accessible to ask any questions, and/or oversee that the unescorted submissive is doing okay?
Mon 08:03:52 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . Thank You, Tenrik..it's a pleasure to be back. *Warm smiles*
Mon 08:04:07 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . the RT Dungeon closest to me requires a background check and attending a class, i believe, or having a membership which has its own safeguards also. *nods*
Mon 08:04:18 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . That's always true, Odysseus...uninformed ones can as well. It's up to U/us to help them, in my opinion.
Mon 08:04:21 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . Lady Gwyneth Rose, i appreciate Your point that those You have collared do not use safe words with You but You still have negotiated boundaries with them before and You have in place a "safe sign" for them to communicate with You in the midst of a more intense scene...i applaud this tactic and it's one i can broach with the Ones i play with...thank YOU! *big beam*
Mon 08:05:17 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . You are welcome Gwyneth.*WS*
Mon 08:05:51 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grins to rebecca* I do what I can.
Mon 08:05:53 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . All the clubs I've visited in the past do as well, chrissa. The more casual ones only required that a new person was vouched for by a long-standing member.
Mon 08:07:04 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . Alexandra...at my RT Dungeon it is as Oothers have shared...one must take an orientation course...and sign a waiver before attending the Dungeon. after that though...other than the DM Who can be contacted for assistance and Who keeps a general eye on the place...the submissives are left alone.
Mon 08:07:06 PM EST Mar 1 BLACKLIONII . . . I never took words away from fairest one to punish her.....I wanted her to think about what she want to say and why....soW/we could have a good discussion about it
Mon 08:07:12 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . The RT Dungeons I have been in have at least had the new ones attend a munch so that they can understand what is going on in the BDSM world. I Myself have hosted several munches for the newbies..I think it helps.
Mon 08:07:34 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . Wow...there aren't background checks at O/ours.
Mon 08:08:43 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . *Nods to Alexandra.* I've had similar situations as well with casul Clubs only require someone vouching for them, and especially so in the very old pre internet days.
Mon 08:09:12 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . That's exactly how it is here too, rebecca *nods listening*
Dark Traveler....would You say You're responsible for the single submissives here at the Castle?
i know the RT DM feels responsible and always tries to help them and let them know they can always come to Him if needed.
Mon 08:09:37 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . So many good discussions *smiles hearing BlackLion*
Mon 08:09:47 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . I would hope that somewhere in there is information for a new submissive to know what their rights are, along with the rules of the club/dungeon. ~nods to rebecca~
Mon 08:09:55 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . Wonder how deep those checks are... they can be pretty pricey... who pays? Club Dues?... the applicant? how much?
Mon 08:10:11 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding to the pup..*
Mon 08:10:25 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . The Dungeon Master is in a way a Guardian. He or She serves many pusposes. And yest that is one of them.
Mon 08:11:11 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i was thinking that exact thing lady tiffany....there are fees and dues paid for members of the local D...so, i guess T/they could use those funds, but so M/many come to the Dungeon once or maybe a few times and then never again....that's a lot of money to invest in O/ones who aren't committed.
Mon 08:11:12 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . so here's another question on the topic of boundaries...if one is unowned...does it make sense for them to communicate in a straightforward way their "no"...or is the graceful "bob and weave" tactic enough?
Mon 08:11:27 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding to Dark Traveler* I have been a DM at RT events before and as such I made damned sure that some of the Dominants understood the protocols of not touching a submissive without permission...even if the submissive was uncollared.
Mon 08:11:48 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . *will never understand how a t follows an s on an Ipad?*
Mon 08:11:48 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i thought that i had read that here too, Dark Traveler...that was the day i also learned that ones can sign up to be Castle slaves *smiles nodding*
Mon 08:12:09 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . Very good question rebecca.
Mon 08:12:18 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i think every submissive should strike that word from their vocabulary... ~soft laugh~ see how creative they can be!
Mon 08:12:43 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . rebecca, i personally think they should communicate in a way that is honest and truthful for them. i don’t agree with the philosophy that being straightforward is inherently negative.
Mon 08:12:47 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i did both the other night, rebecca *little laugh* as i said...that doesn't work all the time and i am not ok with being touched unsolicited...so, it took me a little while to get that across.
Mon 08:12:48 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . Personally.. I think a background check is a good idea for a Dungeon..
Mon 08:12:57 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . *Nods respectfully to the LadyGwynethRose's wisdom*
Mon 08:13:23 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . Many conduct them Zilla.
Mon 08:13:23 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . I appreciate directness from new or not, rebecca. Honestly, I'd rather a rude 'no' than being given signals I can't safely interpret.
Mon 08:13:34 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . touching without permission at the RT Dungeon is definitely not tolerated.
Mon 08:13:38 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . *L* Dark Traveler I have a full keyboard and it happens at times to Me as well.
Mon 08:13:43 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . Alexandra...that's a good point You bring up...knowing the rules and boundaries of the place/space you are playing or seeking to play in...for example...this Castle has rules and boundaries in place that inform Eeveryone of Ttheir rights and behavior expectations in these rooms...so it's not just personal boundaries that are important but also respecting the boundaries of where Yyou are.
Mon 08:14:35 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . I agree, especially these days a background check is good for an RT Dungeon.
Mon 08:15:50 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . i agree with Alexandra... it’s completely unnecessary to play games or faux-interest for the sake of being desireable... id hate to feel misled or to mislead someone
Mon 08:16:16 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . Oh, very much so fairest. Definitely not allowed, and could be open to legal charges as well.
Mon 08:16:18 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . I remember many, many years ago when a one came into the Castle, into the Dungeon seeking out submissives..went after them very hard..he was warned, repeatedly and eventually booted out...that was the one called Slave Master.
Mon 08:17:05 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i never fake interest... that is not what "not using the word no" is about at all.
Mon 08:17:36 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . and fairest~one...i have heard your examples of the One that was having difficulty following the rules...what are we to do as submissives when our personal boundaries and/or the boundaries of the space we are in are not being followed...i mean i know you said, fairest~one that you were persistently gentle but firm with One the other night, and you were sucessful in getting your point across... but what else can we do?
Mon 08:18:01 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . 8Smiles as I listen to Mine*
Mon 08:18:07 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i enjoy every interaction i have.... even if at the moment it's not roses and flowers.... later... i appreciate it for what it was... and exchange.
Mon 08:18:38 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . placating is another thing i wasn't allowed and i won't do with A/any...i'm pretty straight forward too, i believe. i also try to treat E/everyone with respect and say things in nicer ways unless it becomes necessary to do otherwise...and i have no problem doing that either.
Even if i've been wrong, as i often am...i still speak my mind.
Mon 08:18:41 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . I do understand there is a definite skill that can be learned in how to work around a flat 'no', lady tiffany. In fact, I can very much appreciate that sort of exchange when it's done well.
Not everyone is as talented as you, though. ~w~
Mon 08:19:04 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . Gwyneth, it does show, though unfortunately Their real intent/non understanding of what BDSM really mean.
Mon 08:19:14 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . and sometimes it's an exchange between Dark Traveler and i.... i take him the exchange... and we discuss it... or he will critique it..... or he will play OFF it... and it may bring about an exchange between He and i... between Master and slave...
Mon 08:19:46 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . Dancing around an issue without saying 'no' is not the same as finding other ways to say 'no'..
Mon 08:19:48 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Wry smile to Tenrik*
Mon 08:20:00 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . In chat, a clever predator can back even a clever submissive into a corner... refuse to comply with stated limits. What does he or she do?
Mon 08:20:05 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . i think that eliminating the word no from submissive vocabularly is an unsafe practise. i do agree its important for us to be communicative and clear, as well as to understand that to use a flat out no is a very strong statement that should not be taken lightly. However to take it away or even create a culture where it is strongly discouraged is just going to create victims, to take away the power that most submissives dont even realize they have to protect themselves, and make them less apt to be communicative an honest about their limits, issues, or things that make them uncomfortable
Mon 08:20:15 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *hearing lady tiffany and chrissa*
agreed...feigning interest is not a necessary thing.
and saying "no thank you" to One you are not interested in is not rude...it's polite and straightforward
Mon 08:20:53 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . exactly...well said, Zilla!
Mon 08:21:00 PM EST Mar 1 Roseblood~*~ . . . listens........not wanting to step in to I read more pn what is said.
Mon 08:21:01 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . rebecca...If the One is receptive to the words i'm saying and does want to learn...that became obvious right away.
If One persists and doesn't back off, i have no issue saying so more forcefully.
Especially saying so in public and that person has to defend His or Her actions in public as well and often that shuts it down....
The great thing about VT is that W/we have the ability to ignore and let a monitor know if it doesn't stop.
Mon 08:21:29 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . appreciates the pubs concise way of thinking.
Mon 08:21:29 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . The first thing that comes to my mind Dark Traveler... is call for a monitor.... or hit the big X...
but i can't recall a time i was even pushed close to that...
Mon 08:21:52 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *hearing Dark Traveler's question...nodding enthusiastically at it's asking*
Mon 08:21:56 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . For here, if a polite decline is met with... 'disapproval', a submissive should simply call a monitor, or if a monitor is not around, the nearest dominant. Or if that is not available either, just ignore and do not engage further.
Save posts for admin if necessary.
Mon 08:22:11 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . i agree, pup. people need to feel safe to say no. ive had way too many uncomfortable experiences in RT - not in BDSM ways - where i was afraid to say no and i needed to be more firm and unyielding.
Mon 08:22:22 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . Very good and valid question Dark Traveler.
Mon 08:22:30 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . in a r/t dungeon.... one would call for the Dominant they are there with... or the DM...
Mon 08:22:40 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Exactly, Zilla. ~s~
Mon 08:22:52 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . Upon occasion, no monitor is available, He or She ignores your attempted ignorance of Their presence. What then?
Mon 08:23:16 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . pup...in the cases mentioned tonight, i think taking that word away has been with O/ones who trust and have been together long enough to find other ways to communicate, and therefore not unsafe. In a new relationship...it can be taught if the Dominant wishes that word not be used.
Mon 08:23:25 PM EST Mar 1 Roseblood~*~ . . . Just....... thinks I learned every hard ass lesson possible before on the way to learning no. I don't use sae words in play because I would rather teach power in the real words but I explain that no and stop are theres to use.
Mon 08:23:28 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . fairest, i completely agree... saying no or bringing things out publicly is a major tool that ive used as well.
Mon 08:23:30 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . Yes, I do so agree Alexandra.
Mon 08:23:35 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *hearing both fairest~one and lady tiffany*
is it ever not the right time to call a Monitor here in Oour Castle if one is feeling their boundaries or the boundaries of the space being disrespected?
Mon 08:23:56 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . one could ask another present Dominant they trust ... we are talking unowned correct?
Mon 08:24:00 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~nods hearing the pup~
Mon 08:24:32 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Listening thoughtfully*
Mon 08:24:42 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . I will put this out, should present Doms step in within reason to help protect the submissive, and how?
Mon 08:24:53 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i've never been afraid to say no....my lack of use of the word with BlackLion doesn't prevent me from saying it in other situations.
Mon 08:25:06 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . i understand, fairest, nor do i have an objection to those dynamics *smiles* thankyou for clarifying that i understood they were not blanket statements or practises
Mon 08:25:27 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . If it's here... virtual... copy all the transcripts.... and hit the big X.... transcripts can be mailed to monitors for review after the fact.
Mon 08:25:58 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . So... If no monitor is present.. and sub is unowned, my own inclination is to step in, within reason.. but that is more due to my own nature..
Mon 08:26:16 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *eyes to Tenrik hearing His question*
i am unowned...and i wouldn'tlike a Dominant stepping in on my behalf without my expressed consent. i would however very much appreciate the Dominant's assistance if i requested it or if it was offered.
Mon 08:26:17 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . If a submissive comes to Me, Tenrik, and says, 'so and so is making me uncomfortable', I will have a word with said Dominant and explain why She or He is overstepping boundaries. If that doesn't work, I step out from red and state plainly to said Dominant that it is not working so kindly refrain.
Mon 08:26:29 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . Tenrik, it's too easy to step on toes when You assume You understand what is happening between a specific Dom/me and sub... best for the sub to click "Get out of Dodge" and to send cut ans pastes to Castle admin.
Mon 08:26:36 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . Not unless asked to be by the submissive Tenrik... it's VERY important...... Unless a submissive asks for you to step in... You shouldn't utter a word.
Mon 08:26:45 PM EST Mar 1 yellowbird . . . *bites lip with a grin as i listen*
Mon 08:26:52 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . As I think about it.. even were the submissive owned, I might still be inclined to step in, within reason..
Mon 08:27:01 PM EST Mar 1 Roseblood~*~ . . . Trying to get out of saying no in every way possible without saying it seems too have been what the first half of my life was about.
Mon 08:27:10 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~nods to lady tiffany~
In VT, removing oneself from the engagement is all that is necessary. Let the person rant on if they are. They're only hanging themselves. If you involve yourself, you can get caught in that rope. So just... don't. ~g~
Mon 08:27:33 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i have had to call monitors and have had email exchanges where i saved transcripts when i was harassed.
For the most part...i take care of it myself...it kind of depends on Who it is because One that i have trouble with is banned, so even arguing with Him could get me into trouble as well. i have to ignore Him and report to Monitors for Him to be removed again.
Mon 08:27:44 PM EST Mar 1 Roseblood~*~ . . . Listens to catch up.
Mon 08:28:28 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i feel the same as rebecca....i'd ask if i needed help. i would say that to One too, though...that i appreciate the help, but i handled it, if that was the case.
Mon 08:28:35 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . As alexandra and tiffany pointed out, in VT saved transcripts do very much to verify things especially with O/other backing up the submissive. That is one very good way Dominants can help.
Mon 08:28:56 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~hears rebecca to Tenrik and nods~
As a dominant, I would not step in to a situation "in defense" of a submissive, unless I was asked to, or it was very obvious there was abuse.
I think the "cavalry" mindset is far too prevalent, to be honest.
Mon 08:29:58 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . .
Mon 08:29:59 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . Don't get caught in the rope *smiles hearing Alexandra* You've told me that before.
Mon 08:30:44 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . I agree with you Alexandra.. way to prevalent....
Mon 08:30:46 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~smiles at fairest one~
Mon 08:31:12 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . here's a question, again to the Dominants in the room...is there a way that submissives can overstep Your boundaries? What does that look like?
Mon 08:31:14 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . being submissive doesn't mean helpless...
Mon 08:31:48 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . I thank Y/you A/all for the comments, I only stated as Dark Traveler stated about the stepping on toes. As W/we also know though not seen in a long time takedowns can seem and appear to be something that in reality they are not.
Mon 08:31:54 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~nods to lady tiffany~ Indeed.
Mon 08:32:02 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . amen to that lady tiffany! *bigolegrin*
Mon 08:33:13 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . There might be a type of play that I am not comfortable with, and being asked to participate in that type of play.. Not sure if I am saying that correctly...
Mon 08:33:17 PM EST Mar 1 Roseblood~*~ . . . rebecca if one over steps then it is due to lack of communication from me I feel.
Mon 08:33:17 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . submissives need to learn and understand that not only are they capable of protecting themselves, but that is acceptable and respectable for them to do so. Guilt or fear can prevent the submissive from acting in their own best interests because of the perception of backlash, bad reputation, or rejection
Mon 08:33:17 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *smiles nodding hearing lady tiffany* The doormat stigma does get old and is often thought by those outside of the lifestyle.
Mon 08:33:48 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . I honestly can't think of anything at the moment, rebecca, but good question.
I think it's mostly a matter of, after a submissive knows my lines, if they still cross them, they are taught a lesson. Again, situational.
If it's something I know they couldn't know, I tell them.
Mon 08:34:18 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . Hmmmm...I haven't many boundaries, rebecca, but if one were approaching that boundary I would have a word with that one..explain Myself completely and make sure that submissive understood the 'why' of the boundary.
Mon 08:35:13 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Tenrik, the first scene I did in here was a take-down, and it was so ruined by "well-meaning saviours", I almost didn't come back. ~chuckle~
Mon 08:35:15 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . would be interacting in a displeasing way be overstepping boundaries? or trying to force a specific interaction? *just thinking, uncertain*
Mon 08:36:21 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . exactly, pup. i think our boundaries as submissives are us taking care of the property (ourselves)...no Owner wants a unkempt and damaged property. *lil smile*
Mon 08:37:09 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Yes, I think so, chrissa. ~nods~ If you know what displeases, then why do it? So yes, a boundary has been crossed.
Mon 08:37:10 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . I think that depends on the P/person, chrissa. To Me, trying to force an interaction would be Topping from the bottom.
Mon 08:37:14 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . *Nods to Alexandra in understanding.* I have some very extreme appetites as well that can be VERY misconstrued as well. and Yes"Do Gooders" can ruin it.
Mon 08:37:55 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . *smiles hearing rebecca and taps his nose*
Mon 08:38:25 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . rebecca, remember I once said to you to "be fearless"?
That's what I meant. ~points to pup's post~
Mon 08:38:52 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . Would boundaries of a Dominant be sort of the same as for a submissive? There might be limits to where the Dominant is willing to take the submissive or fears on Their own part and therefore, they have hard limits as well?
Mon 08:38:54 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . For example, on a site there was discussion about a submissive suddenly realizing they were a “little”, so they started trying to interact with their Dominant from that headspace - which the Dominant was uncomfortable with. Everyone seemed to be upset at the Dom for not “accepting” who the submissive was, but that was never the original dynamic and it wasn’t something the Dominant was ever interested in... and without discussion. So, that would be overstepping a boundary.
Mon 08:39:36 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . it does seem to me that in the asking and discussing of boundaries...that boundaries are something in place to protect submissives for those owned and those unowned...and even though a Dominant may set up boundaries for Theirs...it is up to the submissives (both owned and unowned) to keep in the boundaries place? what do Yyou Aall think?
Mon 08:39:51 PM EST Mar 1 Roseblood~*~ . . . listens...
Mon 08:40:59 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . agreed, rebecca
Mon 08:41:37 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . In that sense, yes, fairest one. I don't do physical play unless I'm physically present. So I don't get submissives to things to themselves as my 'proxy'.
I have done in a handful of situations in which I trusted the submissive's ability, and was watching by video, so could stop it if necessary, but that's more exception than anything.
Someone insisting on doing that sort of thing would be pushing my boundary, yes.
Mon 08:41:53 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . I agree there rebecca, though in just My own opinion it is also up to the Dominant as well to make sure they are kept in place as well.
Mon 08:42:00 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i would say that was a boundary from that Dominant and the submissive definitely should have had a conversation about that before just switching, chrissa.
i've learned that even though i have my own power and my own voice...when i do submit, just the word means to me...that i learn how the Dominant wants me to submit and try my best to be pleasing in that way. Not...this is how i want to submit, so every Dominant who wants to play with me has to conform or i'm done. i'm not talking about having limits...those are set, of course...but just submission in my own way is desire to please...so, i'd have to learn what a certain Dominant liked and didn't like in order to be pleasing.
Mon 08:42:00 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . rebecca, can you clarify that question a little? sorry im not wanting to mistake what you mean.
Mon 08:43:06 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . sure chrissa...i am asking if you think it is the submissives responsibility to set and uphold boundaries...
Mon 08:43:15 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Oh, wow. I've seen things like that happen too. Acceptance of any and everything or be called "intolerant" or "judgemental" seems to be a widespread disease.
Mon 08:43:22 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . i totally agree, fairest... that submission inherently is a desire to please and a willingness to be molded into the most pleasing thing for Them.
Mon 08:44:15 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . i think it is, rebecca. but it’s also the responsibility of the Dominant. It’s a mutual responsibility. or in a larger space, a community responsibility.
Mon 08:45:28 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . i like this idea of boundaries being a multi-layered thing...like a pretty cake...
personal boundaries
boundaries within a Rrelationship
boundaries in Ccommunity
Mon 08:45:48 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . I agree, chrissa, We as Dominants have a responsibility as well.
Mon 08:46:08 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . Well said, rebecca..*warm smiles*
Mon 08:46:24 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . Yes, I also agree chrissa.
Mon 08:46:38 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . Walks back in after rt responsibility is completed. That’s a fantastic question Rebecca and one i want to hear the responses on
Mon 08:46:40 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . in some ways boundary and responsibility are the same
Mon 08:46:53 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . like personal boundaries being able to say no in your own personal style
boundaries being Rrealtionship based as required by the Dominant and discussed and agreed upon by the submissive
and Ccommunity boundaries...ways to hold Eeach Oother accountable in Oour spaces
Mon 08:47:21 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . Well put rebecca, it is all about layers.
Mon 08:47:27 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . i think of it in correlation to rules... like it’s my job as the submissive to follow the rules, but it’s a Dominant’s job to enforce them... to correct if necessary. I wouldn’t find as much joy in obeying otherwise.
Mon 08:48:01 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . I personally think it is up to both parties to figure out what they are as they learn and grow together
Mon 08:48:33 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . chrissa...i like that...you have a responsibility to follow agreed upon rules/boundaries/limits...and it gives you pleasure to do so
Mon 08:48:49 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i think it's the submissive and Dominant responsibility to be upfront and honest about boundaries and to keep each O/other in line in some ways.
Dominants make mistakes also and can push too hard and submissives can sometimes let it happen. Neither of those things are healthy and there should always be open communication and consistency in the ways that's dealt with.
W/we should also be able to 'police' O/ourselves...so to speak. i am not owned in VT at the moment...but, i wouldn't let that change me into an unruly, rude person because that's not who i am and i shouldn't have to be told not to break the rules of the rooms here at the Castle.
Mon 08:49:17 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . *nods* it gives me pleasure to also know im not the only one invested!
Mon 08:49:26 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . Junkyarddog...yes...communication is key! (it's worth repeating) *grin to Alexandra and Lady Gywneth Rose*
Mon 08:49:27 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . But agrees with chrissa if they are set it is up to the Dom to enforce them or what is the pint of having them in the first place?
Mon 08:49:41 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grins to rebecca*
Mon 08:50:15 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . That's a good point, fairest one.
Dominants are expected to keep submissives in line, but submissives need to be able to bring a dominant to task if they're crossing lines.
Mon 08:50:59 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . absolutely fairest~one...you bring up a really point about how as submissives we have a responsibility to inform Dominants when They are pushing against our boundaries...it's that communication piece again...*grin*
Mon 08:51:02 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . I so agree fairest. Also with the O/others about communication as well.
Mon 08:51:13 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~chuckles~
Mon 08:51:44 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i agree, Junkyarddog...and consistency in enforcing those rules is important to me as well. i like to be held to a certain standard and i don't need or like to be coddled...so, i like having firm rules and knowing there are consequences.
Mon 08:51:59 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . We make mistakes really? I can’t remember when I made one smiles......
Mon 08:52:01 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . i agree with that fairest one.... it also doesn't really attract the good kind of a dominant... i don't think someone with control really looks for the out of control person....
Mon 08:52:09 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . I actually depend on a submissive to let me know, clearly, if I'm being an asshole. It's how I know I can trust them. If they can't do that, then I can't trust them.
Mon 08:52:15 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *laughs*
Mon 08:52:30 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . chaos attracts chaos..
Mon 08:52:46 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . oooh there's a good point...rules and boundaries make us feel safe but they also hold us accountable...and don't they also let us know our Dominants care about us?
Mon 08:53:11 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i want to be told the same, Alexandra....W/we're humans first and if i'm being an asshole, i really want to know that from O/ones that i interact with.
Mon 08:53:25 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~grins at Zilla~
Mon 08:53:29 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . yessss fairest, i just want to underline everything you say. *laughing*
Mon 08:53:35 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . ~soft laugh~ that is interesting Alexandra....... You ever try being an asshole... just to see if a submissive will let you know You are being an asshole?
Mon 08:54:05 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *warm soft laugh hearing chrissa...cuz i relate*
Mon 08:54:06 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . rules can change just like boundaries can. It's still all about communication...which can be the word of the night, i think *little laugh*
Mon 08:54:24 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . absolutely, rebecca... correction and high standards are like a love language to me.
Mon 08:54:29 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *grins to chrissa* we're just a lot alike
Mon 08:54:52 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Oh, sometimes I don't even have to try, lady tiffany. ~lol~
Mon 08:54:52 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *laughs hearing lady tiffany*
Mon 08:54:57 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . *L* I like that Alexandra. I would rather give a submissive that opportunity as it in itself say quite a lot in just one word and that serious discussions are in order about reviewing why in an equal manner.
Mon 08:55:10 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . I think so too, fairest one...communication (I may have mentioned communication) is paramount in the P/power E/exchange. That is an ongoing dommunication, I believe.
Mon 08:55:39 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . Communication You say, LadyGwynethRose? *little teasing grin*
Mon 08:55:40 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . *hides a laugh*
Mon 08:55:48 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . Communication, for crying out loud..although I like dommunication as well.
Mon 08:56:03 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . ~laughing~ i'm in a weird head space... i wonder what it would be like.... as a submissive.... to just try and be an asshole... and see what happens...
Mon 08:56:14 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . chrissa...it's the same for me...i'm not a brat...i don't want to push against the boundaries set by One...but i do want boundaries there so that i know what is expected of me...and also...if One cares, if my existence in Their life gives Them pleasure...They will take the time to let me know how i can continue to please Them by setting boundaries in place.
Mon 08:56:20 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . I think I have mentioned it a time or two, fairest one..*grins* Seriously, though, without it We become abusive, not Dominant.
Mon 08:56:40 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . There used to be a submissive here... no names... who was very assertive, and had no trouble speaking their mind... openly and clearly. They often... challenged me in various ways.
One time, I wanted an honest opinion about something... and guess who I asked?
Mon 08:57:03 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *grinning along with the playfulness in this room and in these Ppeople*
Mon 08:57:14 PM EST Mar 1 -Junkyarddog- . . . Absolutely Rebecca. If we don’t enforce them or are unwilling to follow through with things that are important to me that signifies a lack of respect. We expect their respect unconditionally in some cases and if we can’t follow through on expectations or things that they feel are important then how much do we truly care??
Mon 08:57:34 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . i have a quote that ive been hanging onto for myself to remind myself whyyyy high standards are such a good thing... but it isn’t super relevant to this but ill maybe share another time. it helped me. it’s more related to correction and being called to impeccable standards and why it matters.
Mon 08:57:40 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i do think it's up to the Dominant to give the submissive that confidence and 'permission' sometimes. ones who are more shy and reserved might need to know that they do have that voice and they are encouraged to use it instead of fearing it, like pup said earlier. i believe that needs to be clearly said and not in minced words..."I want you to speak your mind and always be honest"...the same as i would say to a Dominant.
Mon 08:57:48 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . I dare you, lady tiffany. ~grin~ Which Dark Traveler's approval, of course. ~smirk~
Mon 08:57:55 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Which=with
Mon 08:58:05 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . you try that and let U/us watch what happens lady tiffany *laughs*
Mon 08:58:17 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . it's a welcome addition to the conversation, chrissa, if you would like to share...
Mon 08:58:33 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . *L* tiffany I had a submissive here way back in 2010 that was an asshole and am still trying to get over that.
Mon 08:59:20 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . i would say that's a great compliment to the one You're speaking about, Alexandra *smiles nodding* i'm never shy about saying what i feel either.
Mon 08:59:53 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . hahaha i was just thinking Alexandra.. i would get in trouble if He heard about it......
Mon 08:59:56 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . i do keep apologizing for that Tenrik *joking wink*
Mon 09:00:30 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . fairest one, that doesn't apply to me because a submissive having spent any length of time with me, would have no trouble doing that. ~grins~
Mon 09:00:32 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . it’s from a Gor book, which ive never read, but gave me a lot of comfort when i felt like i was being unfairly punished while others can get away with things... so i keep it tucked safely as a note on my phone... here it is:
“ Then the only danger is that he will weaken. One must be strong with a love slave. If one truly loves her, he will be that strong. The slavery in which a love slave is kept is an unusually deep slavery. She must serve him with a perfection which would stun and startle other girls; if she should fail in any way, even in so small a way that the lapse would be overlooked in the case of another wench, or bring perhaps a mild word of reprimand, she is likely to be tied at the slave ring and whipped; there is good reason for this; she is, you see, a love slave; no woman can be more in a man's power; and with no woman must he be stronger.”
Mon 09:00:39 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . ok Eeveryone...thank You so much for being here tonight and adding to the conversation. Wwe made some great points, i think! Communication being the theme! *soft laugh*
Yyou Aall are welcome to stay in and continue discussing...but this announcement winds down the formal "scheduled" conversation.
Mon 09:00:53 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . *L* Thank you pup*Joking wink back.*
Mon 09:00:55 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . *Soft Dark Chuckle*
Mon 09:01:04 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . JunkYardDog...You're so right. Respect is earned and i think that comes right along with it. There are few faster ways to lose my respect than not feeling it from another P/person.
Mon 09:01:15 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . Of course Alexandra.
Mon 09:01:41 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~stares at lady tiffany, suppressing laughter, then just bursts into it~
Mon 09:02:21 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . There you go, lady tiffany. It's official. I dare you. ~grins~
Mon 09:02:36 PM EST Mar 1 Zilla . . . Thank you for hosting this TimeOut rebecca
Mon 09:02:50 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . That's really beautiful, chrissa *smiles reading it again*
Mon 09:02:52 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Thank you for hosting your first and very successful TimeOut, rebecca!
~claps and grins~
Mon 09:02:59 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . thanks rebecca!!
*watching to see what happens*
Mon 09:03:01 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . ~soft laugh~ You can laugh... i would be the one being punished... his punishment is not to give me an orgasm...
Mon 09:03:10 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . uh oh *laughs*
Mon 09:03:18 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . Well done rebecca.
Mon 09:03:22 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . yes thank you for hosting, rebecca
Mon 09:03:23 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . I thankk you so much for that reference chrissa.*S* It rings very true.
Mon 09:03:24 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . Yes thank you rebecca!
Mon 09:03:45 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . ~laughing~ I don't think he was giving permission for me to be an asshole... but good try Alexandra..
Mon 09:03:48 PM EST Mar 1 chrissa~ . . . *smiles to fairest and Tenrik* i found it encouraging and beautiful.
Mon 09:03:55 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . *Tries real hard to look completely innocent*
Mon 09:03:59 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *beams*
such a delight to see Aall of Yyou and hear Yyour thoughts.
yay!
Mon 09:04:15 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . *sits back with bright eyes and watches the room*
Mon 09:04:17 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . *Fails Completely*
Mon 09:04:34 PM EST Mar 1 ~*fairest~one*~ . . . *laughs*
Mon 09:04:42 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . He was approving the dare. Were you not, Dark Traveler? ~grin~
Mon 09:04:50 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . Thank Y/you, E/everyone, for the Time Out..it was lovely!!
Mon 09:05:07 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler . . . *WS* Absolutely Alexandar.
Mon 09:05:08 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . I thank you as well rebecca. I feel this has been a very well needed night for U/us A/all.
Mon 09:05:39 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Ta da! ~triumphant look to lady tiffany~
Mon 09:05:40 PM EST Mar 1 LadyGwynethRose . . . Be well, A/all!
Mon 09:06:02 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . Awe come on Dark Traveler, give it Your best!
Mon 09:06:15 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . Thank you, everyone. Enjoy the rest of your evening. ~s~
Mon 09:06:40 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . really??? ~looking at Dark Traveler~ and if i accept this dare..... would there be a punishment?
Mon 09:07:00 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . Thank You as well Alexandra and do have a good evening as well.*S*
Mon 09:07:43 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . it really feels like this community is reviving after far too long... im glad and grateful
Mon 09:08:01 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . *Looks and just smiles at tiffany.*
Mon 09:08:14 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~smiles to the pup and nods~
Mon 09:08:31 PM EST Mar 1 Dark Traveler`s lady tiffany . . . this could be negotiated.... ~smiles~ You know how much i like that..
Mon 09:08:31 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . it does feel like that pup...so glad you are here *sends him a hug*
Mon 09:08:44 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . *looks to the pup.* I so agree My friend, and so well overdue.
Mon 09:09:40 PM EST Mar 1 Alexandra . . . ~grins hearing lady tiffany and whispers~ Glad I could help you get your negotiate on. hehe
Mon 09:10:21 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . *GRRR* I meant so long over due. damned typist!
Mon 09:10:43 PM EST Mar 1 the pup . . . *smiles and returns the hug warmly*
Mon 09:13:50 PM EST Mar 1 rebecca . . . i am going to mosey upstairs to the Dungeon...be well Aall!
Mon 09:14:56 PM EST Mar 1 Tenrik . . . I thank Y/you a/all also for a great night as well.
| •HOME | •CHAT | •FORUMS | •VILLAGE | •NEWS | •ARCHIVES | •JOIN | •T.O.S | •PRIVACY | •CONTACT | •HELP |
Click Here for Help Or return to the Beauty's Castle main page.
Copyright ©1998- Sleeping Beauty Publications Ltd.