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Mon 04:03:03 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Good evening, and welcome everyone.

Sadly, rebecca is no longer your regular host. The responsibilities of hosting a TimeOut session can be time consuming, and since everyone’s RT takes precedence over any virtual activity, in lieu of a single regular host, we are going to rotate hosting duties between Monitors and volunteers from amongst you all. If there is a particular BDSM topic in which you are interested, we would encourage any of you to volunteer for a one-off hosting session based upon the topic of your choice. Just let one of the monitors know a minimum of 7 days prior to the TimeOut session date you wish to host.

Monitors with TimeOut duties:

• Alexandra/Solstice
• Dark Traveler
• Dark Traveler’s lady tiffany

Mon 04:06:05 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . The topic for this evening is Protocol, Customs, Etiquette.

What exactly are we talking about when we use these terms in a BDSM context? How do we use these elements within the various aspects of the BDSM culture - for play purposes, various types of interactions in a BDSM setting, or within ongoing relationships. What is their importance in our knowledge and practice of BDSM?

This discussion is intended to address those questions, and more.

Here is some further reference material to expand your knowledge.

Beauty’s Castle’s own Dungeon Customs & Protocols:
http://dungeon.beautyscastle.com/guides/cp/cp_d.html

Peter Masters:

• https://www.peter-masters.com/wiki/index.php/Structure
• https://www.peter-masters.com/wiki/index.php/Etiquette
• https://www.peter-masters.com/wiki/index.php/Protocol

Mon 07:01:06 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . *appearing, settling with my tiger*

Mon 07:01:39 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . *Steps into the TimeOut Space*

Mon 07:02:01 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . *happily arriving with my Bear...settling in*

Mon 07:03:03 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Hello, everyone. ~s~

Mon 07:03:22 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~waits for beginning comments~

Mon 07:03:29 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Good evening Alexandra. *nods respectfully*

Mon 07:03:35 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . Good evening Dark Traveler

Good evening Alexandra

Mon 07:05:20 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Well met Zilla. *nods*

Mon 07:05:48 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Lady tiffany's suggestion was a good one, Dark Traveler. The Mistress was able to move the opening of the room up by 1 hour - that was just done today. ~s~

But at least one link will be put in the topic banner that goes up on Friday.

Mon 07:05:50 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . How did You wish to begin this evening Alexandra?

Mon 07:06:32 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . We could start with the first question:

What exactly are we talking about when we use these terms in a BDSM context?

Mon 07:06:55 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . tiffany is experiencing some family medical issues but I will be sure she hears Alexandra.

Mon 07:08:19 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . I like that. From the beginning I was told that Emily Post Could have been writing her Book for the BDSM community.

Mon 07:09:11 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . For me:

Protocol - rules that apply at specific times in a specific way and are rarely, if ever, 'bent'.

Custom - this to me is what is commonly held to a particular BDSM standard within BDSM culture. E.g., that in RT dungeons and clubs, it is usually customary for submissives to be escorted by a dominant (not necessarily theirs).

Etiquette - this is the standard of behaviour based on common courtesies and customs.

Mon 07:09:13 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Good manners is the basis for Etiquette in the BDSM community.

Mon 07:09:58 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . *looking over the resource materials*

i like this quote taken from the material

"Protocol refers to a set of rules of behaviour used between two or more people to indicate rank."

it echoes some of the points made in the Castle guidelines too. how the capital letter on a Handle typically denotes a Dominant and a lower case handle is indicative of a submissive. Though it doesn't always have to be that way.

Mon 07:10:24 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . General rules of engagement, as it applies to environment

Mon 07:10:52 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~chuckles~ Perhaps. Many traditional rules of etiquette arose from the feudal systems of Europe.

Mon 07:11:24 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . *listening*

Mon 07:11:43 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . There was a submissive here for years that Capitalized her name. Do Y/you remember Soliare?

Mon 07:12:35 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . That would make some sense, in that many of the rules of conduct originated from the Codes of knights and courts..

Mon 07:12:44 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . i never knew Soliare...she was here before my time. how did she make her rank known?

Mon 07:12:57 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Entering, seating Myself quietly*

Mon 07:13:40 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods hearing rebecca~ Yes, most of the time, the highest form of protocol is what is put in place for that purpose within a relationship by the dominant.

But there are "general" protocols as well. For example, many BDSM clubs and dungeons have protocols about forms of address and even rules about speech. These, I think, come under the venue's "protocols and customs", like those we have for the Castle.

Mon 07:14:04 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . The Systems W/we see in BDSM vary from a very regular set of Customs. There are minor differences between RT Clubs but it's always the rule of not touching until asked to do so that O/one should kee a wary eye upon.

Mon 07:14:43 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Yes, I remember Soliare very well, and when you granted her the capital 'S', Dark Traveler. ~s~

Mon 07:15:05 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~smiles seeing LadyGwynethRose~

Mon 07:15:08 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . and i hate to misquote lady tiffany...but once when i was new here i asked her to explain the Dungeon etiquette to me...and she very clearly and succiently broke it down that the customs of the Dungeon are very much like a lady's court in olden days...rules and ranks and proper behavior...everything conducted with layers of meaning and until all the layers are glimpsed at...one can feel like an outsider...so it is important to watch and learn and familiarize oneself with the doings of the court.

Mon 07:15:09 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Rank sharing is as much about communication and negotiation rebecca.

Mon 07:16:11 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . So, even though RT clubs or dungeons might have a varying set of rules, there must likely be a set of understood rules that remain common betwixt them all.. the 'no touching that which is not yours' as Dark Traveler mentioned above is very likely one such

Mon 07:16:29 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . *Smiles in greeting to LadyGwynethRose*

Mon 07:17:18 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Smiling to Ms. Alexandra..* I think many of the protocols, etc. also came about to protect F/folk from being accused of abuse..such as the don't touch unless asked or being escorted..

Mon 07:17:27 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods~ Yes, some rules, protocols and customs are pretty standard, but a few vary from venue to venue.

Mon 07:17:57 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Smiles to My Dark Twin..*

Mon 07:18:04 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . I was told upon My very first steps into an RT BDSM Club that I should not expect to play on that first evenings meeting.

Mon 07:19:22 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . That would make sense, as it would give you the opportunity to observe and see and learn what the various rules of that particular club might be..

Mon 07:19:35 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding thoughtfully to My Dark Twin..* I was told in My first time in an RT Dungeon to observe..to not expect to Play unless I had a submissive with Me and at that time I did not..I was expected to watch and to abide by the Protocols of the Dungeon.

Mon 07:19:46 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . As rebecca suggests, watching and listening is probably the first and best rule to follow. Learn from the O/others present.

Mon 07:20:17 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . exactly...it seems to me there are general rules, etiquette, protocols...etc. but then there is also what is specific custom to a particular place. *nodding to Zilla*

Mon 07:20:22 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Yes, and you bring up a extremely important point, Ms. Rose.

BDSMers are not protected under law, but they can protect themselves with care and vigilance, and that's what many of the customs and protocols are meant to be.

Also, BDSMers tend to be people with very strong personalities who are very passionate about their beliefs and perspectives, so many of the rules are meant "for our own protection", so to speak, and a BDSM space can be safe in that extra way as well.

Mon 07:20:48 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . And it's always a wise idea to find and speak to the Clubs support staff and monitors regarding any special rules 'of the house'.

Mon 07:21:16 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . I have always found that observation, particularly in a new place, is the best and fastest way to learn.. if not only by social clues and cues, but also through conversation..

Mon 07:21:39 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . My first visit to a BDSM club (a gay one), I was told "don't touch anything and don't speak to anyone 'otherwise' engaged". ~chuckle~

Mon 07:22:58 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding again* I remember a few times when the 'don't touch' protocol was violated and T/those were dealt with swiftly..as in being booted out by the Dungeon Bouncers..

Mon 07:23:23 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . It sounds like M/many of U/us have similar early experiences.

Mon 07:23:42 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . That is good that Staff were there and able to handle the situation swiftly..

Mon 07:25:47 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . There is very little tolerance for leering looks or off colored comments about what seems to be going on. It's the 'Thumper Rabbit" rule, "If Y/you can't say something nice don't say anything at all."

Mon 07:26:38 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding again* I know that sometimes, whether virtually or in an RT Dungeon, Protocols/Customs get violated and it is nice that in either world they can be dealt with..in the virtual world it is more difficult but not beyond the realm of possibility.

Mon 07:26:40 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Pardon - returns from rti and catches up...

Mon 07:26:50 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . my rt experiences have been at very regimented strict Dungeon clubs and also at very..."free for all" Dungeon clubs...the latter can be very uncomfortable and feel very unsafe...i remeber once en scene opening my eyes and a stranger was just above me hungrily devoring me with His eyes...it was very invasive...i asked my Top to intercede...(He was down at my feet busily suspending them with rope...and hadn't noticed the Lookee-Loo)...and in here i have had unwanted attention in my reds during a scene...and again i9 asked my Top to intercede...so there is that piece too...yes? it is not just the Top's responsibility...or the Dungeon Staff to intercede on behalf of a scene and proper etiquette but also the bottom's...yes?

Mon 07:28:12 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Oh yes, it's kind of and "unspoken" protocol, just borne of courtesy, that you do no walk around agog with your tongue hanging out. ~chuckle~

Mon 07:30:21 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . No, in general, the bottom is passive.

Anything needing attention, depending on the level needed, is either the Top or the DMs.

Mon 07:30:30 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Always best if you have a Top who can be asked to speak with a problem child but generally better to allow the Room Monitors here to deal with the problem children.

Mon 07:31:03 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Unless the bottom is tampered with directly (either verbally or physically), is the only time they are required to inform their Top.

Mon 07:31:53 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Not exactly Alexandra. submissives should view unwanted attention like a play invitation that requires negotiation. Reminding trouble makers of that is a good first step to get a bad action to find an end.

Mon 07:32:02 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . interesting.

Mon 07:33:13 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . I carry on a very continuous conversation with My submissive. I am also very attentive to the attention she draws from those around U/us. Not much gets past Me.

Mon 07:33:29 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . If they receive unwanted attention while with their Top (either in scene or out), they are obligated to inform their Top if it's not obvious.

If they are at a club that allows single bottoms, then they can engage as necessary.

That's been my experience, anyway.

Mon 07:34:52 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . It's getting hard to find Good Clubs that allow unaccompanied submissives access.

Mon 07:35:00 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . I Myself have been asked to step in as a DM to stop unwanted attention to a submissive but I only do so IF I am asked to do so..for example, I am thinking of Kiwi complaining and rightly so about the take down scene and having F/folk comment either in red or out loud about the scene..again, this follows protocol in My opinion..help if asked or if the situation is getting out of control, butt out if not.

Mon 07:36:08 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Excellent observation LadyGwynethRose.

Mon 07:36:21 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . I have found, actually, that most of the clubs that I've been to have very few "written" rules/protocols. Usually they underline some common custom or etiquette, is particular to the club, or has to do with law.

In general, many of the clubs have "cultural" customs - where you just "get to know" what they are by being part of that club's culture.

Mon 07:36:51 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Do W/we experience a lot of unwanted interruptions in the Castle's BDSM Rooms?

Mon 07:36:59 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . It's been several years since I've been to any clubs, but I've only been to two that allowed unescorted bottoms.

Mon 07:38:18 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . I have seen both, Ms. Alexandra...My first club had the protocols written at the door..and it was pretty obvious when F/folk would come in what the protocols were..I have also been in more free flowing clubs and those were different..*Smiling at Dark Traveler*

Mon 07:38:51 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . it has not been my experience that there has been a lot of unwanted interruptions. it used to be so. years ago. not anymore.

Mon 07:39:01 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . My experience has been that there is always a front door. Someone greets entering Guests and Members and people who are not known to the Club are given a brief introduction to what is expected of new faces.

Mon 07:40:29 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods hearing Ms. Rose~ Over the years we've tried to establish that what is seen in public in a dungeon (especially a virtual one) is often only the tip of an iceberg. We've always tried to let people know that if they feel concern over something that's happening, the need to inform a monitor, NOT bother the people involved.

Part of this in a virtual environment is that non-consent is simply a mouse click away. In VT, a response is consent, unless it is to overtly say "I do no consent".

Mon 07:40:30 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Private homes have always been the more "Out of Control" places. Y/you never know who you will discover inside. *soft chuckle*

Mon 07:40:38 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . no=not

Mon 07:41:15 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . unescoted bottoms are allowed and welcomed at both the local clubs i frequent. i don't arrive alone...i go with other submissive girl friends. i have arrived by myself and early at a club to meet my Top Partner for the evening. it sounds like there is a wide variety of acceptable customs and rules at rt clubs.

Mon 07:42:13 PM EDT Mar 29 rebecca . . . *unescorted

Mon 07:42:20 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . I've experienced almost the opposite, rebecca.

Years ago, everyone tended to be respectful rather than not. Interferences were the exception.

I left the club scene because that began to change.

Mon 07:42:55 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Wry smile to Dark Traveler* Or swinger's clubs that have a BDSM component to them..they are also difficult to see if there is an issue or not.

Mon 07:44:56 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods~ I've been to clubs that allowed bottoms to enter together, but at least one of them have to already be known to the club.

Mon 07:45:03 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . *listening* ... Very interesting

Mon 07:45:14 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . It is often difficult for new people to tell if what appears to be problematic performance is something to attempt to break up or is actually a scene starting. I've seen several 'Mistakes' in judgement turn into bad experiences for would be problem solvers.

Mon 07:45:40 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . So what about protocols, etiquette, rituals, etc. within a relationship, or even within a play scene?

Mon 07:45:57 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . *nods at Alexandra's observation about submissives entering a club*

Mon 07:46:03 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . *slipping in to lurk and hopefully participate a bit*

Mon 07:47:21 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . As a group, W/we tend to talk about protocols, etiquette et. al. as it applies to being new... when in truth, Much of what must be practiced is between Dom/me and sub.

Mon 07:48:23 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . *enjoys seeing members of O/our community enter to participate*

Mon 07:48:54 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . I think play parties are pretty specific to the hosts desires for how it's set up.

But for the most part, people invited are usually familiar with the hosts and thus are also aware of the protocols.

I've never been to a private play party, honestly. ~g~ Mostly because I only play privately.

Mon 07:49:13 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~smile in welcome to fairest one~

Mon 07:49:32 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Negotiation and consent. Always consent. A living rule between Dom/me and sub.

Mon 07:50:04 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . The local Dungeon here has an orientation that must be attended for A/anyone new coming in. All of the rules and protocols (such as no touching without permission and no interrupting scenes...and what the monitor's jobs are) are gone over in that session...and sometimes O/ones can be assigned a M/mentor.

Mon 07:50:11 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . So.. not to harp on a familiar theme.. but.. Communication?

Mon 07:50:27 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . The respect a One shows the submissive they play with says a great deal about who and what they are.

Mon 07:50:46 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grins to M'Lord Zilla* I believe that has been mentioned in here a time or two, yes..*smiles to fairest one*

Mon 07:51:24 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Wonderful practive fairestone.

Mon 07:51:56 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Rule number on Zilla.

Mon 07:52:10 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . The big C *smiles hearing Zilla....grinning to Lady Rose* That's always the perfect way to start.

Mon 07:52:24 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Oh, and just a final note about virtual takedown interruptions before I forget -

If you see someone responding (i.e. the bottom to the top), then you can safely assume there is consent and you need not harass the participants.

If you absolutely must intervene for whatever reason, call a ~Monitor~ NOT pm either of the participants. IF a monitor is not available, THEN pm the Top only, NOT the bottom.

Mon 07:52:44 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . I think that is good, fairest one...that way, F/folk know what is expected and what isn't expected..and the 'consensual' part of SSC is observed.

Mon 07:53:15 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Getting to know O/one another. Likes, dislikes, limits.

Mon 07:55:52 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Do any dominants here start out a relationship with a list of rules?

Mon 07:56:19 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . How adequate do those present this evening feel the Castle Protocol links and rules links are to the needs of the BDSM rooms?

Mon 07:56:46 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . I do, Ms. Alexandra...again, communication...that way they know what I expect of them and they know what they can expect from Me.

Mon 07:56:55 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . i think that the Dungeon rules/protocols are the 'set in stone' type...and then rules and protocols set by C/couples are just in addition when in a public setting?
That's why it's important to ask before interrupting, because bystanders won't know what has been agreed to. The Monitors here always know when there is any sort of questionable or controversial scene going on...so, they can put minds at ease.

Mon 07:57:28 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . I've reread them most recently for this topic, Dark Traveler. ~s~ I think they suffice, though maybe tweaked a bit, but for the most part, I think they cover what needs to be covered.

Mon 07:58:58 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods to Ms. Rose~ For a long time, I did it mostly casually - the "getting to know" process, more or less.

One time, I decided to start with a contract. Wow. I'm always going to do a contract now. I actually used to be against them, because I think it was too "business-like". ~g~

Mon 07:59:22 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Very like the LadyGwynethRose I have a set of expectations I share with those I play with... actually, with those I would like to play with. These can be very off putting to some and can result in a "Thank You, but no Thank You" conversation.

Mon 07:59:26 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . think=thought

Mon 07:59:42 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . I have read through them before and again for tonight.. I think that they cover a range of expectations nicely, while allowing for expansion, as needed, by the community or the Monitors, and of course You as Dungeon Master

Mon 07:59:44 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . i re-read the rules for the Castle after the discussion about changing and updating them. i didn't see any issues...but, i

Mon 08:00:08 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . I believe in "Contracted Relationships."

Mon 08:00:24 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . oops **little laugh* i think they definitely cover the basics....they're a little long and that's the only feedback i've gotten after pointing them out to new O/ones.

Mon 08:00:49 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods to fairest one~

Yes, I agree. I think the written ones are "set in stone". The 'unwritten' ones (i.e., the customary courtesies) can be flexible, but they should still be known.

Mon 08:01:07 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Thank You Zilla.

Mon 08:02:02 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Thank you fairest one.

Mon 08:02:26 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . I go back and forth about contracts in relationships.. on the one habd there is a provided structure that can be referenced.. but on the other, I tend to work best without a net, but rather hard limits as it were.. which of course.. comes back to communication..

Mon 08:03:40 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . One of the things I found, Dark Traveler, is that I thought it was sufficient to just say "I like this, I don't like that, do this, don't do that", and that's that, because you know, we are intelligent adults who can listen to reason and take heed, not children to must be corralled into discipline. ~chuckle~

Well, experience has taught me, being an intelligent is not mutually exclusive with "listening". ~chuckle~

Mon 08:05:05 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . The structure and content of a good contract includes techniques for contract review and renegotiation. I find that they eliminate most of the misunderstandings that arise between Dom/me and sub as time passes.

Mon 08:05:45 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding thoughtfully* Aren't most contracts subject to renewal or renegotiation through time and trust?

Mon 08:05:53 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . That used to be me, Zilla. ~grin~ But having a contract and rules (I have very few, actually) does not preclude seat-of-the-pants flying. ~nods~

It's just a good, solid base.

Mon 08:06:33 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . *Chuckles and smiles as I review Alexandra's observation*

Mon 08:06:57 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . You make a good point, Alexandra

Mon 08:07:21 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods to Ms. Rose~ They should be, because individuals change and grow, as well as relationships.

Mon 08:08:18 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Besides, I think most bottoms/submissives like a bit of structure. A beginning contract provides a starting point for that, at least. ~s~

Mon 08:08:24 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . The format that I use LadyGwynethRose requires at least an annual revisit.

Mon 08:08:42 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . Exactly, Ms. Alexandra, and while the contract may begin with strict protocols in place, as the R/relationship changes, the contract could change as well.

Mon 08:09:34 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . It also includes a section on "Fair Fighting". Something I've found is very helpful as the submissive grows and changes.

Mon 08:10:00 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Indeed. ~nods again~ Things can be put in place for a period of time, and when that thing has been successfully accomplished, it's time to review the contract.

Mon 08:10:28 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Yes, "the rules of engagement", as it were. ~nods to Dark Traveler~

Mon 08:10:53 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . *nodding* .. That makes good sense..

Mon 08:10:59 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . What's fair fighting? How to argue with respect? *little grin as i wait for the answer*

Mon 08:12:03 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . It's a good methodology for training, as well. ~s~

So I've created my own protocols (not necessarily "lifestyle" but more "mystyle" ~g~), more based on my own values and beliefs than "cultural" mores.

Mon 08:12:21 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Yep. ~grins at fairest one~

Mon 08:13:08 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . How to present your ideas and requests, how to question something, how to express doubts and opinions, how to disagree... all that. ~g~

Mon 08:13:34 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . Hmm. *thinking as I listen*

Mon 08:13:48 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . *just smiles* well, i probably could use some of that training *soft laugh*

Mon 08:14:17 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . fairest one, I'm sure you have disagreed with someone who someone who used creative language to twist a discussion in a way that made it hard to resolve issues? The System of rules I use to insure "Fair Fighting" prevents that experience. I am willing to share a write up on Fair Fighting for those who would care to read it.

Mon 08:15:01 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . I don't think fair fighting in BDSM is that far removed from the 'normal' fair fighting..don't drag up things not germaine to the issue, don't call names, use 'we' or 'I' not 'you' phrases..

Mon 08:15:11 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . In the Olympics and other professional athletics, there are rules of "fair play". There is a rule for "fair play" in the Crypt rooms. Same idea.

Mon 08:15:57 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods hearing Ms Rose~

Mon 08:16:20 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . i definitely have, Dark Traveler...things get lost in opinions sometimes and nothing is resolved. i'd love to read that, please.

Mon 08:16:32 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Please forgive the typing. I'm using an iPad. No secretarial experience and I feel just a wee bit foolish.

Mon 08:17:18 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . If you provide a document I can link to, Dark Traveler, I can include it with the archive of this discussion.

Mon 08:17:44 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . May I have a word with you in private Fairest one?

Mon 08:18:31 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Excellent Alexandra... I'll make it available to you.
you may ignore the request for PM fairest one.

Mon 08:19:02 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . Alexandra...will the links You posted earlier be available in the archive version as well? i can't scroll back that far.

Mon 08:19:12 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . Now, of course, WE/we are A/all human first and W/we will make mistakes but when the protocols are in place and communication is in play, that should help to iron out some issues before they become issues.

Mon 08:19:18 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . ok thank You Both *smiles nodding*

Mon 08:20:03 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Yes, the entire discussion, including linked reference material, is archived within 24 hours of this evening, fairest one. ~s~

Mon 08:20:08 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . Agrees with LadyGwynethRose.

Mon 08:20:20 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Thanks, Dark Traveler.

Mon 08:21:10 PM EDT Mar 29 Dark Traveler . . . I am called to the phone. Hoping to return shortly.

Mon 08:21:29 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . Be well, Dark Traveler and safe journeys...hurry back..

Mon 08:21:35 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Yes, Ms. Rose. I do think that if tenets of Protocol, Customs and Etiquette are observed, and common sense as well as courtesy is applied, we all can do very fine indeed.

It's when one or more of those things break down that there is trouble.

Mon 08:21:42 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . i do like having rules instead of being given 'free reign' to just do as i please. i don't like a lot of choices usually either....too many can be overwhelming to me sometimes.

Mon 08:21:45 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . Anyway, do F/folk think that protocols differ from customs???

Mon 08:22:32 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Wry smile* And it is unfortunate when they do break down, Ms. Alexandra..

Mon 08:22:56 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Here's something I posted at the beginning regarding that, Ms. Rose...

For me:

Protocol - rules that apply at specific times in a specific way and are rarely, if ever, 'bent'.

Custom - this to me is what is commonly held to a particular BDSM standard within BDSM culture. E.g., that in RT dungeons and clubs, it is usually customary for submissives to be escorted by a dominant (not necessarily theirs).

Etiquette - this is the standard of behaviour based on common courtesies and customs.

Mon 08:24:24 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Do you ever have "periods of free reign", fairest one? Like where you might be allowed a day, or a week, or say... some designated time... to have "free reign"... or do you not want that at all?

Mon 08:24:38 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . Those are great definitions, Ms. Alexandra, and those are usually the ones I have seen before.

Mon 08:26:01 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . I agree Alexandra, with a slight expansion..

Protocols are what exist for manners of address and also for rules between parties;

Customs are the accepted beliefs/rules that exist within a community at large, either in RT or VT clubs, or in the amalgamation of both

Mon 08:26:10 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods~ It makes sense to me, Ms. Rose, and that's all I ever ask, is that things make sense. ~grin~

Mon 08:27:09 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Yes, very nicely and clearly put, Zilla. ~nods agreement~

Mon 08:27:36 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . Do You All as Dominants have a set of rules that You always present as 'law'...and then some others that come up depending on need? i guess that's where i always saw a contract as having to be changed too much and i haven't dealt with them often.

Mon 08:30:06 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . Hmmm...good question, fairest one..I Myself have certain rules that if a submissive wants to be with Me they have to follow..however, if said submissive is with Me for a period of time, those 'rules' are ..not necessarily bent but modified.

Mon 08:30:18 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . There are a few rules that are 'set in stone' for me. ~nods~ The first is "no lying", then "always be open and honest, both intellectually and emotionally", then in a subheading, I go on to define those things so we are on the same page on what is meant when those words are used.

Things that will change usually have a time period attached.

Everything else is 'on the fly'.

Mon 08:32:41 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Also keep in mind, when it comes to a contract, there will be "my way or the highway" rules from the dominant. Some of thse can be classified "dominants boundaries/limits".

If the bottom has "my way or the highway" rules, they are discussed, and could remain, but may not. These can be "hard and soft" limits.

Mon 08:32:45 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . I have a general rule of always tell me how you are feeling, rt or vt, so that I can know or understand mindset.. hand in hand with that, is always be honest with me..

Mon 08:33:56 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods to Zilla with a small grin~ That comes under "emotional and intellectual openness and honesty".

Mon 08:35:18 PM EDT Mar 29 wolf pup . . . *quielty sits in down in the back*

Mon 08:35:53 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . Agreed Alexandra

Mon 08:36:19 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . Do You expect that emotional honesty to go both ways? If You as Dominants have issues, have a bad day, have ...would You want a submissive that You could discuss these things with and work through?
i understand that the Dominant sets the rules...sometimes there are what i call 'rules' that can't be pushed...so, those would be hard limits?

Mon 08:38:23 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~nods~ Yes, fairest one.

However... and this is a big 'however'...

As the dominant, I always reserve the right to hold back what I judge to be useful in doing so. ~g~

There is a point in my relationships, where it's no longer... "equal". ~s~

Mon 08:39:00 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . Dominants have bad days too, fairest one, believe it or not..*Grins* if I am having a bad day, I will tell this to tenderheart so he knows not to disturb Me until I am better.

Mon 08:39:04 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . I generally try to be. I think it does go both ways, doubly so as if I am in a sour mood for other reasons, I would not want my submissive thinking it was their causing..

Mon 08:40:29 PM EDT Mar 29 ~chrissa~ . . . *peeks in while winding down*

Mon 08:41:14 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~smiles at chrissa~

Mon 08:42:38 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . One of the things I include while training a submissive, is a process in which they can get to know, over time, how to "read" me, without me having to say anything.

One of my rules is, "if ever in the slightest doubt about anything, ASK."

Mon 08:45:41 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . Even if a submissive is considered 'well-trained'....i always feel that some training is so specific to One Dominant...that training is always required when working with new Ones.

Mon 08:45:58 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . *chuckling*... that was one of the rules I grew up with.. "If you don't know, then ask. If you want to know, ask. If you don't want to know, shut yer yap and deal with it."

Mon 08:46:59 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . i like to be asked also...instead of O/ones just assuming or guessing.

Mon 08:47:16 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . I believe there are tops who specialise in "general training", fairest one.

Most dominants train submissives "to them". But general training usually applies to the lifestyle in general, rather than the preferences of a single dominant.

Mon 08:47:55 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~laughs~ Me too, Zilla.

BUT - that last one? In BDSM, that can be tricky. ~w~

Mon 08:48:22 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . And, i always treat Dominants as humans first...i just know some who think They should always hold it together and realistically, it's not possible. If One wants to hide that side from a submissive, that's another story.

Mon 08:48:34 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~smiles at fairest one and just nods~

Mon 08:49:13 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding at the answers..*

Mon 08:49:45 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . I think if a dominant is thinking that they need to be superhuman, they're not yet a proper dominant. They're still a "dominant in training". ~g~

Mon 08:50:08 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . So, You would expect a submissive who has been around for a while to know certain 'things', Alexandra? That does make sense to me. New Dominants have to learn a lot too...so, it's the same as anything W/we as humans tackle....learn and learn well and don't shut down to learning more.

Mon 08:50:47 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . I did not mean to imply that those rules work in all situations.. just that those were the ones that were my foundation of learning..

Mon 08:51:36 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . I don't expect anything specific until I actually know, fairest one.

If I know a submissive is experienced and trained, I'm still not going to "expect" anything based on that alone. I have to find out from them, specifically what they know and don't know.

Mon 08:51:48 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . If anyone thinks that they can be superhuman.. or "ON" all the time.. then they are new in every sense of the word, regardless if Dominant of submissive..

Mon 08:52:06 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . of = or

Mon 08:52:36 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Well, that last one could still exist in BDSM, Zilla, as long as all involved parties are on the same page. ~g~

Mon 08:53:01 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Yes. ~nods agreeing with Zilla again~

Mon 08:53:32 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . I agree, M'Lord Zilla..I have said that many times, that We aren't always 'on' ...it isn't humanly possible to be 'on' all the time.

Mon 08:55:52 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . I tried it some years back as an experiment.. I succeeded for about 3 days.. afterwhich I had an emotional crash.. in all things moderation

Mon 08:55:55 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . That's exactly what i was getting at....that it's too hard to be 'on' all the time. *nods in agreement*
That's where i have to be careful not to stay casual, though....time and place, and all that *little laugh*

Mon 08:56:35 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . You tried being superhuman? ~grin~

Mon 08:57:31 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Here's something someone said to me once...

"If your submissive is not submitting, it's because you're not dominating."

~g~

Mon 08:58:35 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . I was younger and thought it was possible.. rather.. I did not think it was impossible.. turns out.. I was wrong.. and it was arguably on of the best lessons I have ever learned.. second only to "Do not open a banana while using stairs."

Mon 08:58:44 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . That to fairest one's comment about being "careful not to stay casual". ~g~

Mon 08:58:54 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . That is true, Alexandra

Mon 08:59:23 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~lol~

Kind of similar consequences, Zilla?

Mon 08:59:36 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grins at M'Lord Zilla again* That would indeed be a valuable lesson.

Mon 09:00:46 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . And that is true, Ms. Alexandra..I remember the talk of the 'sas' (smart aleck submissive) and how those were looked upon as 'not really being dominated' when in fact it was just their particular personality.

Mon 09:00:46 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . It seems we're winding down. ~smiles around~

I think we've covered the topic well, if we are ready to call a conclusion to the session.

Mon 09:01:27 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . Sort of, Alexandra... one was an emotional energy crash... the other.. I fell up a flight of stairs.. which I think is more embarrassing than falling down a flight of stairs..

Mon 09:01:30 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . I Myself don't care for the 'yes ma'am, no ma'am, three bags full ma'am' type because frankly to Me it takes too much WORK..LOL..but again, that's Me.

Mon 09:01:54 PM EDT Mar 29 Zilla . . . Thank you for the discussion Alexandra

Mon 09:02:16 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . Thank you, Ms. Alexandra, for the wonderful TimeOut and thank Y/you A/all for the discussions...once again, I am learning from differing V/viewpoints and I thank Y/you A/all for that..*warm smiles*

Mon 09:02:19 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Yes, their personality, Ms. Rose, but it's a personality that can be disruptive in a BDSM setting if they... wait for it...

... don't understand BDSM customs and protocol.

~g~

Mon 09:02:26 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . If the Dominant agrees to take on that type of submissive, Lady Rose...that's a different sort of agreement maybe? brats and sams would be an acquired taste, i think.

Mon 09:02:45 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . Thank You Alexandra *smiles nodding*

Mon 09:03:03 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . ~laughs~ Omg, what an image, Zilla! Thanks for that. ~grin~

Mon 09:03:05 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . I think so too, fairest one..definitely.

Mon 09:03:34 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . BOL...it's the understanding, Ms. Alexandra...that...and....communication!!!!!

Mon 09:03:37 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Excellent, Ms. Rose. We are meeting expectations, then. ~w~ Thank you!

Mon 09:04:22 PM EDT Mar 29 LadyGwynethRose . . . Once again, thank You for the discussion, Ms. Alexandra..and now I am gone..*Warm smiles, waving and gone*

Mon 09:04:28 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Yes, absolutely, fairest one. One must be careful not to bite off more than one can safely chew. ~chuckle~

Mon 09:05:12 PM EDT Mar 29 *~fairest~one~* . . . Thanks again...i'm glad i was able to be here *waves and heads back to the D*

Mon 09:05:30 PM EDT Mar 29 Alexandra . . . Thank you, everyone, for attending, and all your very helpful, informative and useful input and feedback.

Please remember the Archives are available at the top and bottom of every Chat page. ~s~

Enjoy the rest of your evening, all.

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