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Mon 06:01:35 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . This week the topic is Alternative Punishments..here is the link.

https://www.the-iron-gate.com/essays/58

Mon 06:02:27 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . As Jay Wiseman writes, "I firmly believe that the dominant should not slap, spank, paddle, bind, confine, or otherwise perform any common BDSM act on a sub as punishment. We are trying to create positive, erotic connections with these activities. Let\'s reserve them for that area alone and not cloud the connections. I also firmly believe that a dominant should never slap, punch, kick, or otherwise touch a submissive in anger."

Mon 06:02:49 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . So, thoughts on alternative punishments?

Mon 07:48:09 PM EDT May 31 Odysseus . . . Doing those things is a good way to rule by fear. To base the relationship on negatives. I don't think relationships like that last. And if they do, they cross the line between dominating and domineering

Mon 07:57:05 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . I really loved the article. Even just reading through it reminds me how much I adore discipline and correction in a dynamic. It really is a way to enforce the power exchange.

I personally am not a pain slut, so pain is effective. Also motive is huge. If I disappoint my Dom, everything is awful until it’s resolved. I’ve also had many of these alternative punishments and they definitely leave a lasting effect.

Mon 08:00:00 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . i enjoyed the article and found it very informative

Mon 08:00:04 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding as I enter and see the answers...* And good evening...I am thinking of alternative punishments here...as the article said, sometimes threatening a good spanking is NOT the way to get the point across.

Mon 08:00:24 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . And good evening, A/all...*warm smiles as I seat Myself..*

Mon 08:00:55 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . punishment, to me, is meant to correct behavior, not "punish" necessarily for behavior that falls short

Mon 08:01:26 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . I agree, there are many other effective and creative ways to get the message across

Mon 08:01:45 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . punishment should have a favorable effect and reinforce the simple fact that the submissive has fallen short in his or her service

Mon 08:01:51 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . My thoughts as well, oliver...for example, as I mentioned last week, My tenderheart hates...and I mean absolutely LOATHES...paperwork so what kind of punishment do you think he gets when he has been naughty??

Mon 08:01:53 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . What do you mean, oliver?

Mon 08:02:34 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . And hello, chrissa..*warm smiles* First, let Me ask Y/you W/who are present...do Y/you like the 8 PM time or should it go back to the 7 PM time?

Mon 08:02:54 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . chrissa...punishment to inflict pain or discomfort seems to me a useless activity if not done with the goal of correcting the subpar perfomance or omission

Mon 08:03:08 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . *smiles* im here and the time works better for me, actually!

Mon 08:03:23 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . the 8 pm time in fine, LadyGwynethRose

Mon 08:03:52 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . oliver, i thought the entire concept of punishment is to correct behavior always?

Mon 08:04:14 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . *quietly entering and finding a seat on the edge of darkness*

Mon 08:04:53 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . no, sometimes punishment can inflicted simply for revenge or out of anger

Mon 08:05:25 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Warm smiles to judith...* lovely, chrissa and oliver and thank you for the input...now...let's talk alternatives...as I mentioned, tenderheart and his paperwork...what do your Dominants do for you for alternative punishments? As oliver said, it is to correct not to break..

Mon 08:05:50 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . sounds like abuse then...

Mon 08:06:13 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Precisely, oliver, and in that case, that is no Dominant IMHO...that is an abusive person who gets jollies out of hurting someone and it doesn't necessarily have to be physical...could be emotional or mental abuse as well...

Mon 08:06:23 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . *settles in*

Mon 08:07:07 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . LadyGwynethRose, at the moment i have no Dominant, but to me, the most effective punishment is to take away the thing i most desire,,,,service to my Dominant...so, silence, no contact. etc to me are the most effective

Mon 08:07:36 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . *smiles warm to LadyGwynethRose in return~ I am an extremely affectionate person one of the things Glory used was not allowing me to touch Him

Mon 08:07:53 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . denial is a big one, Lady Rose... denial of a scene or time with Him... having to sit in a corner and watch Him use a well-behaved girl instead....

it’s been a while since ive had to be punished, thankfully.

Mon 08:08:57 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Good evening, wolf...good point, oliver, and a punishment I have used upon occasiona...now..I liked the article and one of My favorite parts is this..do not punish without education.

Mon 08:09:36 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . What is the point of punishment if the submissive has no clue what he or she has done wrong? Do you agree??

Mon 08:10:15 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . I completely agree, Lady Rose!!! That’s so vital.

Mon 08:10:33 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . ~listening to chrissa with a tilt of head~

Mon 08:10:39 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . absolutely LadyWwynethRose...i would want to be told exactly how i fell short, why the punishment it being administered and how i can correct my deficiency

Mon 08:11:38 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . Personally I find being ignored as a consequence to be damaging rather then instructive. Personally I don’t like punishments as a general rule u less such is agreed upon. Simply knowing I made a mistake and have disappointed my Dominant is awful enough on its own

Mon 08:11:53 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding..* and how about the idea that the punishment should fit the crime? For example, a little smack on the wrist won't be as effective as....say...forbidding time with the Dominant...would you agree?

Mon 08:11:54 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . i also like how it said that it should be done in a timely manner... and once it’s over, that it’s over. Those are all so important.

Mon 08:12:40 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . yes, the punishment should always fit to offense...absolutely

Mon 08:13:28 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Exactly, chrissa...it does need to be done in a timely manner..it would not be nearly as effective if I punished a week after the transgression...now..if it is truly bad transgression, I MAY give Myself a little time to cool off..never ever punish in anger! BUT...I would still make sure it was done and then when it was done...it is finished...over...

Mon 08:15:18 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . the worst thing ever is to know that you’ve disappointed and have it lingering overhead, waiting until the punishment is done. i definitely crave that kind of repentance... punishment wiping the slate clean to move forward. If it takes a long time OR is forgotten about or not done...well, that makes me feel unloved

Mon 08:15:54 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Another good part of the article.."Fifth, never cross limits or boundaries. Always respect limits and fears or phobias even when punishing. If someone is claustrophobic do not lock him or her in a closet as punishment, the mental trauma would far out way the transgression." What do you think about this concept?

Mon 08:16:59 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding thoughtfully at the answers* I hear from many submissives that the worst, the absolute WORST punishment is the knowing they are not pleasing to the Dominant...would you agree with that idea?

Mon 08:17:00 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . Absolutely, a hard limit is off limits period. That’s what it means to be a hard limit

Mon 08:17:04 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . the Dominant is always in control, especially when administering punishments...is She cares about Her submissive, the punishment would fit the crime, be swift and clear, edcuate and be reasonable and with the submissive's limits

Mon 08:17:17 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . i agree chrissa for me it is not a feeling of not being loved but that I am not important enough for Him to follow through

Mon 08:17:28 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . yes LadyGwynethRose, totally true

Mon 08:18:16 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . I don’t know if it’s the worst but it hurts. The worst is if you have caused a permanent damage to the dynamic or it is ended as a result

Mon 08:18:56 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . *nodding* punishment isn’t meant to harm someone, it’s meant to have accountability and foster the trust and enforce the power dynamic. so it’s necessary to respect the boundaries and limits agreed upon, or even additional information known about the submissive. it may not be a limit, but even in word choices...

Mon 08:19:13 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . i agree Lady Gwyneth Rose that feeling is worse then the punishment

Mon 08:19:13 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . judith... so good to see you

Mon 08:19:43 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding again* So...let's take this a bit further...let's say that you have displeased your Dominant in some form or another...what punishment would you prefer to wipe that slate clean??? To start over??

Mon 08:19:53 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . yes, Lady Rose, displeasing is it’s own punishment.

*smiles and nods to judith* so agree

Mon 08:20:31 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . ~floats a hug to the wee wolf~ as it is to see you

Mon 08:20:40 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Oh, and by the way, if I am going too fast or talking too much, do let Me know...and of course you may always ask Me questions as well..*warm smiles*

Mon 08:21:19 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . starting over is never realistic...it is communication, expressing the displeasure, educating the submissive, administeroing the just punishment, then putting it behind and moving on, hopefully with a wiser and more careful submissive

Mon 08:21:53 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . for me it is lack of touch

Mon 08:22:45 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . i never get to choose. but something swift and fast. it all depends on what it is though. lately, my mistakes have been resolved with talking about it, mostly. just yesterday, actually, i realized a bit of a mistake on my own, and apologized to Him genuinely - acknowledging what i did wrong and why i believe it was wrong of me. And He wrote back before i woke up... and yeah.

Mon 08:23:07 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . (If im slow, it’s because im on my cell)

Mon 08:23:17 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . All right, judith, for you it is lack of touch that would be an alternative punishment...any other ideas about alternative punishments?

Mon 08:23:19 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . i have a question for You Lady Gwyneth Rose how do You feel about the removal of a collar for a period of time as a punishment

Mon 08:23:55 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . *hears judith’s question, just the thought putting a pain in my belly*

Mon 08:24:00 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . No problems, chrissa, just glad you are here...*warm smile* Okay, swift and fast and over and done...any other ideas"?

Mon 08:24:53 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Heavy sigh* I have done it before, judith...it hurt Me deeply to do it but I couldn't get through any other way, no matter how much I tried..that worked...and the behavior stopped in its tracks...but it hurt Me and I am sure it hurt the submissive as well...

Mon 08:26:35 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . a removal of a collar, even temporarily, is a devastating punishment, as it signifies rejection, the antithesis of education with is forward looking and constructive

Mon 08:26:36 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Eventually the collar was placed back on, of course...but that time period when I had to do what I had to do...it was quite painful to Me..

Mon 08:27:42 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . I agree oliver, but I could not get through any other way to correct the behavior and believe Me, it was an exceptionally unhealthy behavior...so I did what I had to do...and it did work...but it did hurt...

Mon 08:28:26 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . i am not sure i could recover fully from that level of punishment...but that is just my feeling

Mon 08:28:35 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . Thank You for sharing that. When I read that as an alternate punishment it made me feel angry. A collar to me is a blessed connection for a Dominant to remove it to me would signify the end of a relationship. Your words give me pause for thought

Mon 08:30:06 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . It was awful, oliver...it was...

Mon 08:30:20 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . *nodding* it was sending the message that if the unhealthy behaviour is not halted Wwe can not continue with this relationship

Mon 08:30:29 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Now, here are some of the alternative punishments I saw listed...

Sub is to stand in corner, either for a specific amount of time or until the Dominant states that the sub may leave. A good addition to this is to place a quarter on the wall and tie his or her hands, he or she must hold the quarter there with their nose if the quarter falls then they must be punished further.

The sub is not permitted to serve.

The sub is not permitted to call the Dominant by his or her chosen title, i.e. Master, Mistress.

The sub is not permitted to wear his or her collar.

The sub is not permitted to sit on furniture.

The sub is not permitted to sleep in the same room as the Dominant.

The sub is not permitted to sleep in a bed, and must sleep on a mat on the floor.

The sub is not permitted to speak.

The sub is not permitted to make eye contact.

The sub is not permitted to eat with the Dominant.

The sub is not permitted to walk upright, and must crawl.

The sub is not permitted to go nude, and must wear big baggy, unflattering clothing.

Mon 08:30:47 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . There are others, of course, but what do you think of these?

Mon 08:31:24 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . A temporary removal as a last resort.... i understand but... it must be quite the circumstance to warrant such an extreme. I am sorry You felt You had to take such an extreme action, Lady Rose

Mon 08:31:30 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . each is powerful in its own way......

Mon 08:32:49 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . And, for the record...the reason I had to temporarily remove the collar from one of Mine was due to drug use on his/her part...heavy drug use...after I had taken the collar away, he/she/they got the help he/she/they needed and it was put back on...

Mon 08:33:17 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . ive never thought of the concept of having to wear baggie clothing as a punishment before...

Mon 08:34:55 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . These would have the desired affect for me

The sub is not permitted to sit on furniture.

The sub is not permitted to sleep in the same room as the Dominant.

The sub is not permitted to sleep in a bed, and must sleep on a mat on the floor.

Mon 08:36:59 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Chuckling* This one is just diabolical'"The sub must count out all the grains of rice in a large bowl, counting out loud mind you."

Mon 08:37:18 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . Most of that is more rt relevant thougj

Mon 08:37:50 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . smiles...that is diabolical.....

Mon 08:38:11 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . True, wolf, true...in VT, I have used the 'you may not contact Me for xyz amount of time and here is why you can't'...

Mon 08:39:23 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . one time, back with CR, He had me assume a posture in r/t and i spoke with Him over the phone about something He was upset about.. and it was awful. Being on my knees with my face to the ground, having to talk through it. i was definitely crying. *soft laugh*

Mon 08:39:46 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Isn't it just, oliver??? I rather think I may try that one...

Mon 08:40:23 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . But you knew why He was upset and why He punished you that way, right chrissa?

Mon 08:40:31 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . that certainly get my....attention

Mon 08:41:07 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . lack of contact or communication isn’t effective for me. it only creates a further barrier, which is already there from the mistake... and makes me feel so separate, and close in on myself. to distance my heart and mind from Him.

Now, being able to email but not being allowed to “see” Him in chat is a different thing. It would still hurt, but i need some line of communication.

Mon 08:42:07 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . yes Lady Rose.. He talked me through it and it ended well

Mon 08:43:10 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Nodding as I hear the answers...* Love the different viewpoints and I love hearing how some things work for some but not for others...

Mon 08:44:41 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . *Grinning at the memory* I remember when MY wolf...sorry, wolf...had been particularly naughty one time, I had him dress en femme...and do all and I mean all of the housework from the dust bunnies to the ceilings and then he had to give Me a pedi...did he do it? you bet he did! Was he a good boy afterwards? Of course he was!

Mon 08:46:49 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . i was feeling the same way Lady Gwyneth Rose for example chrissa sharing she was punished by having to watch her One use another submissive while she watched that would be a hard limit for me in regards to punishment the wee wolf knowing that he would suffer mentally to be punished by being ignored and yet for me it would be a successful punishment

and chrissa that is not saying that punishment is wrong by any means just an example of what affects submissives in different ways

Mon 08:47:12 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . No harm and a lucky wolf he surely was

Mon 08:47:31 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Exactly, judith...different strokes as it were...

Mon 08:48:32 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . I still have pictures of him dressed up so prettily...*warm smiles at the memory..* But again, it was an alternative punishment for him...if I had walloped him it would have done absolutely no good at all...but this...oh My goodness, yes..

Mon 08:50:10 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . i understand, and dynamics are also different... and again it is also dependent on how large the issue is. thankfully that has only happened once, and it hurt..but after the punishment comes all of the care - which to me is really important to heal from the transgression.

Mon 08:51:13 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . And amazingly enough, chrissa, I BELIEVE next week's topic is going to be 'aftercsre'...*eyes twinkling*

Mon 08:51:25 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Aftercare that is....fingers...

Mon 08:52:16 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . lovely

Mon 08:52:27 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . oh, perfect! after care is more important to be after punishment than any other thing.

Mon 08:53:17 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . agreed

Mon 08:53:42 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . Can you add this topic please "mental health issues and the lifestyle"

Mon 08:54:27 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Exactly which is why I wanted to address alternative punishments this week, aftercare next week..*Grinning* Now then, I realize that TimeOut is supposed to carry on for two hours but unfortunately I must close it because I have an exceptionally early day tomorrow...so I shall ask if anyone has any other thoughts that they would like to present?

Mon 08:54:59 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . aftercare another topic with a wide variety of different views

Mon 08:55:15 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Of course, judith! Thank you for the topic and hopefully W/we can address that one after...aftercare...*Warm smiles* And please do give M'Lord Glory My fondest hello???

Mon 08:55:42 PM EDT May 31 ^chrissa^ . . . thank You for hosting, Lady Rose!

Mon 08:56:10 PM EDT May 31 oliver`````~`````` . . . thank You for am excellent topic and leading and interesting discussion

Mon 08:56:16 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . i have followed all the topics in the archives as i was not able to be here will next Monday be at 7 or 8

Mon 08:56:29 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . I appreciate the ability to do so, chrissa...*Warm smiles* Very much so..

Mon 08:57:01 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . I believe it is going to continue to be at 8, judith...summer is here, F/folk are relucant to come in earlier so...

Mon 08:57:47 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . *soft nod of respect* i will definitely pass Your hello to Him

Mon 08:57:53 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . i appreciate the later time

Mon 08:59:09 PM EDT May 31 Glorys judith~@~ . . . Thank You *warm smiles* and You have done awesome with the topics it is very much appreciated

Mon 08:59:31 PM EDT May 31 LadyGwynethRose . . . Excellent! Again, thank you for attending and thank you for your viewpoints...I continue to learn and be enlightened...*Warm smiles* And now...I must depart...be well and hope to see you next week!!! *Rising, waving and gone for now*

Mon 09:01:39 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . be well Lady Rose and thank You for Your efforts

Mon 09:05:32 PM EDT May 31 the lone wolf . . . *heads downstairs*

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